X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail34.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.133.218] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTPS id 2190943 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 06:22:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.133.218; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-104-174-232.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.104.174.232]) by mail34.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l6LALeCw021349 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:21:41 +1000 Message-ID: <000e01c7cb80$f1164750$e8ae683a@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: carbs vs efi Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:21:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C7CBD4.C1F7B450" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C7CBD4.C1F7B450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been surprised at the recent flurry of carb postings. I = assumed that everyone was doing EFI. having experienced total = electrical failure in march on a trip to the Bahamas I was thinking a = lot about that Neanderthal carb bolted under my O320 and the magnetos, = all unaware of what was going on in the radio, GPS, and nav lights = departments. the reality is that you don't want a reserve battery to = get you to the ground safely, you want to get to the Bahamas and back = and THEN look into what's wrong. my questions are "how much power/performance is lost with a carb, = and which carbs can do manual mixture?". is it stupid to ask if the = Lycoming carb could run a 13B? someone mentioned Harley carbs having a = good history of rough service. what about marvel/schebler? is this = question heresy? :-) isn't efi a bit of overkill for an engine that = basically runs at 100% power, 75% power and idle? scanning thru the = archives I see a lot of postings regarding mixture, mapping, abrupt = failures and such. does this complexity buy us 5%, 20%? the question = of turbo-charging seems to beg similar line of questioning. kevin Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several factors here. First Tracy = is doing some development work, but offering a very inexpensive EMS. = Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed Anderson = is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once dialed = in. Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and = not just because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with = what you feel secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before = that mags can have trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an = early front cover and are willing to run POINTS, you will still need an = ignition. Most of the carb inquiries have been on account of George and Richard = going with single rotors. I believe Richard may have a modified stocker = ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a great service = building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, with a = steel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!) Lynn and I have both grafted old = mopar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power but = are otherwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from J.C. = Whitney but you must do the set up and wiring yourself.=20 Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you must realize that = wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is equally = true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is = available to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he = made with the wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing = him fail to start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too = and the troubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled = his control box for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is = putting in a Lyc. clone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was = self generated, (he re-soldered a connector to gain clearance rather = than re-do the panel), and that connector had the classically difficult = to diagnose intermittent problem. Bully and family made the tough = decision to forgo any further pioneering. To bad too, his plane would = have been a great addition to the conversion "fleet." The point here = is, like flying a cross-country, plan the install and then stick to the = plan. If you run into a bind do the needed rework and don't "make do."=20 You can go with carbs or EFI, there are several, Tracy's is aviation = redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be able to understand the = needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. Troubleshooting = wiring is always the toughest job! This is a super long post already but I must tell you about a failure = I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for school. I was = doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle, came in = running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb = adjustment, the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE = WOULDN'T START! I checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head = and drained the float bowl to check fuel it was clean. This is the = simplest engine in the world, a 2 stroke single! To cut to the chase the = brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I broke it apart later to check and found = someone on the production line had left out the copper core connecting = the top of the plug to the center electrode. The point is no matter how = simple you think a job is it still requires logic and perseverance to be = SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" stuff can fail. Bill Jepson Bill, I couldn't find that Mopar EI in the JC Whitney site - can you give me = some direction as to what that is listed under - I had a look at = electrical. George ( down under) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C7CBD4.C1F7B450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
I have been surprised at the = recent flurry=20 of carb postings.  I assumed that everyone was doing EFI.  = having=20 experienced total electrical failure in march on a trip to the = Bahamas I was=20 thinking a lot about that Neanderthal carb bolted under my O320 and = the=20 magnetos, all unaware of what was going on in the radio, = GPS, and nav=20 lights departments.    the reality is that you don't = want a=20 reserve battery to get you to the ground safely, you want to get to = the=20 Bahamas and back and THEN look into what's wrong.
my questions are "how much = power/performance=20 is lost with a carb, and which carbs can do manual mixture?".  = is it=20 stupid to ask if the Lycoming carb could run a 13B?  someone = mentioned=20 Harley carbs having a good history of rough service.  = what=20 about marvel/schebler?  is this question heresy? :-)  = isn't efi a=20 bit of overkill for an engine that basically runs at 100% power, 75% = power=20 and idle?  scanning thru the archives I see a lot of postings = regarding=20 mixture, mapping, abrupt failures and such.  does this = complexity buy=20 us 5%, 20%?  the question of turbo-charging seems to beg = similar=20 line of questioning.    = kevin
Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several = factors here.=20 First Tracy is doing some development work, but offering a very = inexpensive=20 EMS. Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed = Anderson=20 is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once = dialed in.=20 Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and not = just=20 because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with what = you feel=20 secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before that mags = can have=20 trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an early front cover = and are=20 willing to run POINTS, you will still need an ignition.
 Most of the carb inquiries have been on = account of=20 George and Richard going with single rotors. I believe Richard may = have a=20 modified stocker ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a = great=20 service building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, = with a=20 steel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!)  Lynn and I have both grafted = old=20 mopar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power = but are=20 otherwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from J.C. Whitney = but you=20 must do the set up and wiring yourself.
Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you = must realize=20 that wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is = equally=20 true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is = available=20 to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he made with = the=20 wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing him = fail to=20 start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too and = the=20 troubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled his = control=20 box for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is putting in = a Lyc.=20 clone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was self generated, = (he=20 re-soldered a connector to gain clearance rather than re-do the = panel), and=20 that connector had the classically difficult to diagnose intermittent = problem.=20 Bully and family made the tough decision to forgo any further = pioneering. To=20 bad too, his plane would have been a great addition to the conversion=20 "fleet."  The point here is, like flying a cross-country, plan = the=20 install and then stick to the plan. If you run into a bind do the = needed=20 rework and don't "make do."
 You can go with carbs or EFI, there are = several,=20 Tracy's is aviation redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be = able to=20 understand the needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. = Troubleshooting wiring is always the toughest job!
This is a super long post already but I must = tell you=20 about a failure I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for = school.=20 I was doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle, = came in=20 running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb = adjustment,=20 the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE WOULDN'T START! = I=20 checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head and drained the = float bowl=20 to check fuel it was clean. This is the simplest engine in the world, = a 2=20 stroke single! To cut to the chase the brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I = broke=20 it apart later to check and found someone on the production line had = left out=20 the copper core connecting the top of the plug to the center = electrode. The=20 point is no matter how simple you think a job is it still requires = logic and=20 perseverance to be SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" stuff = can=20 fail.
 
Bill Jepson
 
Bill,
I couldn't find that Mopar EI in the JC Whitney = site - can=20 you give me some direction as to what that is listed under - I had a = look at=20 electrical.
George ( down under)


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