Return-Path: <13brv3@bellsouth.net> Received: from imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.65] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.5) with ESMTP id 2636392 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:47:34 -0400 Received: from rad ([68.212.14.231]) by imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with ESMTP id <20031014144733.IANX1795.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net@rad> for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:47:33 -0400 From: "Russell Duffy" <13brv3@bellsouth.net> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP - series pumps and wacky ideas Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c39262$2da6eaf0$6001a8c0@rad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C39238.44D353F0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C39238.44D353F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The flow meter is a Signet paddlewheel sensor. They are obsolete at the = mill I work in but there was still one in mill stores :-). =20 =20 Thanks. We use similar type sensors in the cooler cabinets for MRI scanners. Next time I open one of those up, I'll take note of how the sensor if physically set up. I recall it being rather big and bulky. Either way, it doesn't sound like something that I'll install on the = plane.=20 =20 Tonight the weather was crap so I didn't fly, but changed out the water pump, as today I gave it a real good going over to ensure it wasn't = going to have any problems.=20 =20 I'm interested to know if the problem you fixed with the original pump = was something that you think was a flaw in that particular pump, or = something that you think exists in all of them. =20 =20 Unfortunately the shaft is not accessible when in operation as I'd like = to clamp it to ensure it doesn't freewheel when off in an effort to = simulate a seized pump to measure flow restriction. =20 =20 I was thinking of trying this experiment in the garage to make sure = there was going to be enough flow in the worst case event that one seizes. =20 =20 I think you may find that by running both pumps all the time that you = will have a very cold engine on descent.=20 =20 This is the main problem I see with running both, or maybe even one pump = all the time. I guess it will be another experiment, and I can always add a controller later if needed. I'm just worried that the controller allows = the flow to get too low. On the other hand, there are lots of folks running with no thermostat, and during descent, they will still be at a = reasonable rpm to create a lot of flow with the stock pump. If they aren't having problems, then I shouldn't either. Since I'm keeping the stock pump housing, I can also use a thermostat, with enough bypass holes around = the edge to allow sufficient minimum flow to keep the engine happy when the thermostat is closed. =20 =20 My plan is to keep the primary pump on the controller with the ability = to bypass the controller (see attached wiring diagram- option 2) with the secondary pump controlled by a thermal switch set to 95C. In the event = of a pump failure, rising temps will automatically start the secondary. In = the event of a extended full power climb it will also kick it on, however I don't know that additional flow will reject more heat. If it doesn't = then I know that my coolers are operating at their capacity. Secondary pump = will also likely be used to cool down heat soak after shutdown.=20 =20 This all sounds outstanding. May I suggest that you plug your thermal switch into the temp sensor location near the oil filter pad? I figure = that would be the first place to show high temps in the combustion chamber if = the water flow stops. I've got a variable temp sensor that's used to turn = fans on and off, and was thinking of using it in that location for the second pump, rather than leaving it on all the time. =20 =20 Take that bulky, heavy pump housing and throw it into the air, if it = comes back down get rid of it and build a lighter, compact adapter:-)=20 =20 I weighed a spare housing from the attic yesterday. It weighs 3 lb 2 = oz, minus bolts, plus grease and dirt. What does your adapter, header tank, = and alternator mount weight? I bet it's not that much less :-) If I had = room to move the alternator to the side, I'd consider that to be another = reason to get rid of the pump housing. The stock housing also allows me the ability to re-install the mechanical pump if the need should ever arise, = or if I want to do some testing with stock pump, plus one EWP. The housing also allows me to run a (modified) thermostat. I think those = capabilities are worth an extra pound or so. =20 =20 Cheers, Rusty (Turbonetics order being placed today)=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C39238.44D353F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The flow = meter is a=20 Signet paddlewheel sensor. They are obsolete at the mill I work in but = there was=20 still one in mill stores :-).  
 
Thanks.  = We use similar=20 type sensors in the cooler cabinets for MRI scanners.  Next = time I=20 open one of those up, I'll take note of how the sensor if=20 physically set up.  I recall it being rather big and = bulky. =20 Either way, it doesn't sound like something that I'll install on = the=20 plane. 
 
Tonight the=20 weather was crap so I didn't fly, but changed out the water pump, as = today I=20 gave it a real good going over to ensure it wasn't going to have any=20 problems. 
 
I'm interested = to know if=20 the problem you fixed with the original pump was something that you = think=20 was a flaw in that particular pump, or something that you think exists = in all of=20 them.    
  
Unfortunately = the shaft is=20 not accessible when in operation as I'd like to clamp it to ensure it = doesn't=20 freewheel when off in an effort to simulate a seized pump to measure = flow=20 restriction.  
 
I was thinking = of trying=20 this experiment in the garage to make sure there was going to be = enough=20 flow in the worst case event that one=20 seizes.  
 
I think you may find that by running = both pumps=20 all the time that you will have a very cold engine on descent. 
&nbs= p;
This is the main problem I see with running = both, or maybe=20 even one pump all the time.  I guess it will be another = experiment,=20 and I can always add a controller later if needed.  I'm just = worried that=20 the controller allows the flow to get too low.  On the other = hand,=20 there are lots of folks running with no thermostat, and during = descent,=20 they will still be at a reasonable rpm to create a lot of flow with the = stock=20 pump.  If they aren't having problems, then I shouldn't=20 either.  Since I'm keeping the stock pump housing, I can also = use a=20 thermostat, with enough bypass holes around the edge to allow sufficient = minimum=20 flow to keep the engine happy when the thermostat is closed. =20
    
 My = plan is to=20 keep the primary pump on the controller with the ability to bypass the=20 controller (see attached wiring diagram- option 2) with the secondary = pump=20 controlled by a thermal switch set to 95C. In the event of a pump = failure,=20 rising temps will automatically start the secondary. In the event = of a=20 extended full power climb it will also kick it on, however I don't know = that=20 additional flow will reject more heat. If it doesn't then I know that my = coolers=20 are operating at their capacity. Secondary pump will also likely be used = to cool=20 down heat soak after shutdown. 
&nbs= p;
This all=20 sounds outstanding.  May I suggest that you plug your thermal = switch into=20 the temp sensor location near the oil filter pad?  I figure = that would=20 be the first place to show high temps in the combustion chamber if the = water=20 flow stops.  I've got a variable temp sensor that's used to turn = fans on=20 and off, and was thinking of using it in that location for the = second pump,=20 rather than leaving it on all the=20 time.   
 
Take that=20 bulky, heavy pump housing and throw it into the air, if it comes back = down get=20 rid of it and build a lighter, compact adapter:-) 
 
I = weighed a spare=20 housing from the attic yesterday.  It weighs 3 lb 2 oz, minus = bolts,=20 plus grease and dirt.  What does your adapter, header tank, = and=20 alternator mount weight?  I bet it's not that much less = :-)  If I=20 had room to move the alternator to the side, I'd consider that to be = another=20 reason to get rid of the pump housing.  The stock housing also = allows=20 me the ability to re-install the mechanical pump if the = need=20 should ever arise, or if I want to do some testing with stock pump, plus = one=20 EWP.  The housing also allows me to run a (modified) = thermostat. =20 I think those capabilities are worth an extra pound or so.  =  
&nbs= p;
Cheers,
Rusty (Turbonetics order being placed=20 today) 
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