X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2139950 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:10:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l5Q09Rup020528 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000701c7b786$70ed0270$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: plugs up. Was Method of killing power?? Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:10:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7B764.E980BF50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7B764.E980BF50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am often amused by what goes for knowledge on the other list. You = have to keep in mind it was proclaimed about 10 years ago that "Plugs = Up" could not work in no uncertain terms. Yes, I have often hear that myth - it goes something like this. If you = lower the fluid level in a pot of water then it won't cover those items = hanging from the lid - quite true. However, what the "experts" = apparently fail to do is to consider the fact that there is a fire hose = pump putting out somewhere in the vicinity of 20-30 gpm of flow. It is = NOT quite pot of unmoving water. The pump forces whatever fluid is in = the engine to gush through every available channel. I hooked up a ohm = meter to the rear coolant sensor (in plugs up it is also at the top of = the block) and verified that even without the full amount of coolant = there is coolant gushing though that area. Its my opinion ( as contrast to unsupported assertions) that by the time = the coolant level has decreased to the level where it becomes a problem = to the plugs area, you have already cooked your engine. So need I say - = don't fly with a poorly designed or constructed cooling system. Yes, I = use stainless steel braided hose - for 10 years now - never changed them = and never had a leak. But, I do consider them expensive and overkill. = Get some top notch radiator house and change them out ever 2 - 3 years.=20 Now, having said that, I did originally grooved the coolant galleys of = the rotor housings to trubulate the coolant flow more in that area. = Later Mazda started casting those turbulators into the housings - so I = have not done it for the last sets of housings. I found it interesting = that Mazda did that as they clearly weren't doing it for Plug Up = installations {:>). So I suspect that it was done because any turbulent = flow is better at carrying heat away than is a smooth laminar flow and = not because they hear Ed Anderson was using them Plugs Up {:>) One person who shall remain unnamed cited seven different reasons (why = yes, I did keep count {:>)) why Plugs Up could not work. I checked = each one out - I mean the guy is right sometimes. The last one offered = was that the oil pump chain would not get splash lubrication due to the = orientation - SPLASH LUBRICATION!! - the last time I saw that was used, = was on an ancient tractor engine. It actually had prongs protruding = down from the connecting rods to splash oil up on the journals of the = engine. But, to have it suggested that the Mazda engineers would use = splash lubrication just amazed me.=20 That seventh myth was put to rest by somebody on the list who while = using a drill to spin the oil pump discovered that the Mazda engineers = had put a pin hole size hole in the aluminum pump housing which sprayed = a continuos stream of oil on every link of the chain that went past. = Nuff said about that. There is NO technical reason not to go Plugs Up with the older 13Bs, I = can't say about the Renesis as I understand there was some changes to = the casting to accommodate the side exhaust and I have not looked into = it. Now, here are some facts. 1. The Plugs are on the top (you knew that = didn't you {:>)) where they are much less susceptible to being downed in = gasoline - flooding is not a significant event for the Plugs up = installation (also makes it a tad bit easier to change in my opinion) = 2. The exhaust points straight down which simplifies the exhaust = considerably - just down and back - also drains the combustion chamber. = 3. Since the intake manifold and injectors no longer sit above the hot = exhaust stack (but on the same plane) there is much less likelihood of = a fuel leak causing a fire by having fuel drip on the hot manifold. 4. There is much more room to experiment with intakes as the tubes do = not have to run across the top of the engine. 5. The high profile = items like the water pump and alternator are now below the cowl line = without moving or modifying them, etc, etc. But, I will continue to point out that the vendors are not making = products for the Plugs Up orientation and therefore there are a number = of things you will have to do or have done. 1. You motor mount is = going to be a custom job, 2. You will need to build an oil sump as the = pan location is now on the side of the engine. That's about it as far = as comes to mind at this point. Hope it helps in your decision. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ben Baltrusaitis=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: plugs up. Was Method of killing power?? Ed, The other list said that there was a possibility of boiling the = coolant in the cavities near the plugs with the plugs up install. Did = you do the modification of removing some webbing to prevent that, or, do = you find boiling no problem? Ben (seriously considering plugs up) Acroduster Too 20B {under construction} ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: 06/25/2007 5:48 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of killing power?? Ed, It is interesting to note that the Curtis-Wright rotary engine = had=20 the long axis of the throchoid at about 45=B0 with the plugs on the = high=20 side! Semi plugs up. The exhaust port was near the bottom. So your = way=20 of thinking has support. I've never thought plugs up was bad, just=20 certain people do. You do have to have a better fabrication ability=20 than conventional installs. the lack of available equipment is the=20 biggest drawback. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of killing power?? Good point, Bill. Mine will slowly leak down through the pressure=20 regulator, but not fast enough to preclude potential flooding with a = leaky injector. But in my case, "Plugs Up", any fuel that enters the = combustion chamber simply drains out the exhaust port(on the bottom) = and since the plugs are at the highest point, there is less = likelihood=20 of any liquid gas entering into the spark plug cavity and drowning = the=20 plugs. This is the reason why flooding is not a significant event = for=20 the plugs up.=20 Ed ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7B764.E980BF50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am often amused by what goes for knowledge on = the other=20 list.  You have to keep in mind it was proclaimed about 10 years = ago that=20 "Plugs Up" could not work in no uncertain terms.
 
Yes, I have often hear that myth - it goes = something like=20 this.  If you lower the fluid level in a pot of water then it won't = cover=20 those items hanging from the lid - quite true.  However, what the = "experts"=20 apparently fail to do is to consider the fact  that there is a fire = hose=20 pump putting out somewhere in the vicinity of 20-30 gpm of flow.  = It is NOT=20 quite pot of unmoving water.  The pump forces whatever fluid = is in the=20 engine to gush through every available channel.  I  hooked up = a ohm=20 meter to the rear coolant sensor (in plugs up it is also at the top of = the=20 block) and verified that even without the full amount of coolant there = is=20 coolant gushing though that area.
 
Its my opinion ( as contrast to unsupported = assertions)=20 that by the time the coolant level has decreased to the level where it = becomes a=20 problem to the plugs area, you have already cooked your engine. So = need I=20 say - don't fly with a poorly designed or constructed cooling=20 system.   Yes, I use stainless steel braided hose - for = 10 years=20 now - never changed them and never had a leak.  But, I do consider = them=20 expensive and overkill.  Get some top notch radiator house and = change them=20 out ever 2 - 3 years. 
 
 Now, having said that, I did originally = grooved the=20 coolant galleys of the rotor housings to trubulate the coolant flow more = in that=20 area.  Later Mazda started casting those turbulators into the = housings - so=20 I have not done it for the last sets of  housings.  I = found it=20 interesting that Mazda did that as they clearly weren't doing it for = Plug Up=20 installations {:>).  So I suspect that it was done because any = turbulent=20 flow is better at carrying heat away than is a smooth laminar flow and = not=20 because they hear Ed Anderson was using them Plugs Up = {:>)
 
One person who shall remain unnamed cited seven = different=20 reasons (why yes, I did keep count {:>))  why Plugs Up could not = work.  I checked each one out - I mean the guy is right = sometimes. =20 The last one offered was that the oil pump chain would not get splash=20 lubrication due to the orientation - SPLASH LUBRICATION!! - the last = time I saw=20 that was used, was on  an ancient tractor engine.  It = actually=20 had prongs protruding down from the connecting rods to splash oil up on = the=20 journals of the engine.  But, to have it suggested that the Mazda = engineers=20 would use splash lubrication just amazed me. 
 
That seventh myth was put to rest by somebody on = the list=20 who while using a drill to spin the oil pump discovered that the Mazda = engineers=20 had put  a pin hole size hole in the aluminum pump housing = which=20 sprayed a continuos  stream of oil on every link of the chain that = went=20 past.  Nuff said about that.
 
  There is NO technical reason not to go = Plugs Up=20 with the older 13Bs, I can't say about the Renesis as I understand there = was=20 some changes to the casting to accommodate the side exhaust and I have = not=20 looked into it.
 
Now, here are some facts.  1.  The = Plugs are on=20 the top (you knew that didn't you {:>)) where they are much less = susceptible=20 to being downed in gasoline - flooding is not a significant event for = the Plugs=20 up installation (also makes it a tad bit easier to change in my opinion) =  =20 2.  The exhaust points straight down which simplifies the exhaust=20 considerably - just down and back - also drains the combustion = chamber. =20 3.  Since the intake manifold and injectors no longer sit above the = hot=20 exhaust stack (but on the same plane)  there is much less = likelihood of a=20 fuel leak causing a fire by having fuel drip on the hot = manifold.
4.  There is much more room to experiment = with=20 intakes as the tubes do not have to run across the top of the = engine. =20 5.  The high profile items like the water pump and alternator are = now below=20 the cowl line without moving or modifying them, etc, etc.
 
But, I will continue to point out that the = vendors are not=20 making products for the Plugs Up orientation and therefore there are a = number of=20 things you will have to do or have done.  1.  You motor mount = is going=20 to be a custom job, 2.  You will need to build an oil sump as the = pan=20 location is now on the side of the engine.  That's about it as far = as comes=20 to mind at this point.
 
Hope it helps in your decision.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ben=20 Baltrusaitis
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 = 6:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: plugs = up. Was=20 Method of killing power??

Ed,
The other = list said that=20 there was a possibility of boiling the coolant in the cavities near = the plugs=20 with the plugs up install. Did you do the modification of removing = some=20 webbing to prevent that, or, do you find boiling no = problem?
Ben = (seriously=20 considering plugs up)
Acroduster = Too=20 20B = {under=20 construction}
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: 06/25/2007 5:48 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Method of=20 killing power??

Ed, It is interesting to note that the Curtis-Wright = rotary=20 engine had
the long axis of the throchoid at about 45=B0 with = the plugs on=20 the high
side! Semi plugs up. The exhaust port was near the = bottom. So=20 your way
of thinking has support. I've never thought plugs up = was bad,=20 just
certain people do. You do have to have a better fabrication = ability=20
than conventional installs. the lack of available equipment is = the=20
biggest drawback.
Bill Jepson


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of = killing=20 power??


Good point, Bill. Mine will slowly leak down = through the=20 pressure
regulator, but not fast enough to preclude potential = flooding=20 with a
leaky injector. But in my case, "Plugs Up", any fuel that = enters=20 the
combustion chamber simply drains out the exhaust port(on the = bottom)=20
and since the plugs are at the highest point, there is less = likelihood=20
of any liquid gas entering into the spark plug cavity and = drowning the=20
plugs. This is the reason why flooding is not a significant = event for=20
the plugs up.

Ed =
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