X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2082962 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Jun 2007 08:14:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.104; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l54CDcrM022121 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0e6801c7a6a2$400969e0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Default EC2 MAP setting was [FlyRotary] Re: Houston, we have a problem... Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:16:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0E61_01C7A680.A6824B50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0E61_01C7A680.A6824B50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Dave, A single injector being out should normally not cause the engine to = stop. =20 First, the fact that you have no prop load on your engine means you have = even less inertia than normal to keep the engine spinning at low/idle = rpm. Second, don't waste your time "tuning" the EC2 without a load - you are = simply wasting your time. I can understand you wanting to play with it = (who could resist {:>)), but that is all you are accomplishing without a = prop load.=20 Third, as many folks have already said there is a safety margin you are = missing without the prop. All it will take is one unintended blip of = the throttle to send the engine and gear box into overspeed and possibly = cause damage or worst yet - injury. =20 I can idle or fly my 13B with two injectors disable with absolutely no = problem, so while one injector not firing would likely cause some uneven = running and missing, it should not prevent the engine from running under = normal conditions - like with a prop{:>). At most you would simply need = to enrichen the mixture control to compensate for the missing fuel. = Again, the most likely reason yours does not is lack of prop load. Again, I understand your cautious approach and the thrill of hearing it = purr - but, that said, there is nothing else you can do that is useful = without the prop installed. I guarantee that you will have to re-tune = once you put the prop on. If you are interested in details of exactly = why you need to have load, send me an off-line e mail. Also, as best I recall there are two MAP defaults possible depending on = how you have your injector switches positioned when the Power is turned = on and you are holding the store button in to reset the MAP back to = default.=20 The Controllers will default to Tracy Crook's Rensesis default mode = OR will default to a standard 13B generic map depending on how your = injector disable switches are positioned. My engine ran better (before = tuning) with controller B than A. I think the reason is that with only = 260 cc/min primary injectors on the Renesis compared to my 460 cc/min = injectors on the 13B that Tracy's default is a bit too lean for my = engine whereas the standard 13B default on is about right. Since you have not had the snubber modification, what follows are the = steps required for getting the default MAp you want on either = controller. The "Sneak Circuit" causes getting the correct default to = be a bit involved: Selecting EC2 MAP Default To select which of the two possible MAP default modes (Tracy's personal = or the generic 13B default settings) , you want, here are the procedures = to follow (this is only for EC2s that still have the Sneak Circuit i.e. = those that do not have the snubber fix). To set the 13B generic MAP default, power to the EC2 and injectors must = be OFF - BUT (BIG BUT!), the injector disable switches should BOTH be = set to ON (the position where they would normally provide 12V to the = injector) (You may need to pull a CB/fuse to=20 remove power from your injectors with the injector switches in the ON=20 position). Ok, why to you have to do this? The reason both injector switches must be ON (but providing no power to = the injectors) is that If either of your disable switches are turned OFF = while doing this it=20 grounds the cold start circuit - and if you reset the controller in this = condition(with the cold-start circuit grounded) , it resets the MAP = default to Tracy Crook's PERSONAL default MAP (i.e for a Renesis engine = with smaller primary injectors)=20 rather than the generic 13B default of controller B. =20 You set the switch to controller A and put the mode selector to mode "1" = (one). You then push in the program button and hold it in while you = turn=20 power on to the EC2 controller. Release program button after 2-3 = seconds=20 and you should have mode A programmed to its generic 13B default. Same = procedures for setting default with/for controller B selected The reason you need to remove power from the injectors or otherwise make = certain there is no 12V to the injectors (by means OTHER than using = the=20 injector disable switches) is there is a sneak circuit in the EC2 which = can=20 provide power to the EC2 through the power feed to the injectors - even=20 though your EC2 power switch may be off. =20 If that configuration exists, then you may think you are holding the = program button before you apply power - but in reality power is already = there and therefore, you will not be=20 successful in causing the controller to go into the default MAP mode = (for either default setting). Now if you only have one switch that = removes power both to the EC2 AND the=20 injectors (like say a MASTER switch) then that is the only switch you = need=20 to worry about. So to summarize. If there is any power to the EC2 either with its switch = turned on or through sneak circuit (if their is power to the injectors) = - your EC2 WILL NOT go into the default reset mode. So ALL power to the = EC2 must be off before you press the store button. Press and hold the = Store button and then turn the power on. If the cold start circuit is grounded (if either or both injector = switches are OFF) when you set the default, you will get Tracy Crook's = personal default MAP setting. So both injector switches should be ON = (but with CB pulled so they provided no voltage to the injectors) if you = want the generic 13B default MAP. Hope this helps ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "David Staten" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Houston, we have a problem... > Chris got it running again today.. and he is 'getting the feel' for = the=20 > engine, and starting it. >=20 > This is still no-load, no instrumentation engine operation..=20 > Instrumentation is probably the next focus: EGT on the exhaust..=20 > calibrate oil temp and pressure probes, as well as obtaining fuel=20 > pressure senders. >=20 > May take the radiator drain fitting out and use that as a temp sensing = > point, or have the radiator tapped at its discharge point for that=20 > purposes. >=20 >=20 > Ok.... > What we know: >=20 > One of the secondaries had a poor connection and broken wire inside a=20 > crimp. This caused an intermittent power condition within one of the=20 > secondary fuel injectors. >=20 > This is the only repair made, and starting was possible after this. = This=20 > is a very concerning failure mode. I will await Tracy's return to see=20 > what he thinks.. >=20 > B runs smoother than A. The only diff is an intake air temp probe on A = > and non-temp adjusted values on B. >=20 > The EC2, as programmed to defaults, is somewhat rich in the no-load=20 > condition of our street ported (by us) engine. We are getting very = good=20 > results with manual leaning and estimated revs in the 3-4000 range = with=20 > a closed throttle, simply by using mixture to control the engine. >=20 > None of our runs have been substantial enough to cause the thermostat = to=20 > open on the coolant circuit. Engine makes hot oil and hot water, and=20 > sends the hot oil through the oil cooling system. >=20 > Our RD1-B has oil circulation, and is warm to the touch from the hot = oil=20 > being circulated in it. There is minimal to no discernable drainage = from=20 > the aft oil drain hole on the RD1-B. We have good oil in, and good oil = > out from the lower/forward drain hole, but none from the upper/aft = one.=20 > I have aluminum tubing and tube nuts on this run. I will make a short=20 > "soft line" for this run, as well as for the oil feed (which is=20 > currently a stainless "hard line" run from the stock oil pressure = sensor=20 > port to the redrive inlet port. >=20 > Anyone have any thoughts on the injector power being a possible point = of=20 > failure? Has anyone else had a single secondary injector (presumably=20 > staged) unpowered before and had a problem? >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0E61_01C7A680.A6824B50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris, Dave,
 
A single injector being out should normally not = cause the=20 engine to stop. 
 
First, the fact that you have no prop load on = your engine=20 means you have even less inertia than normal to keep the engine spinning = at=20 low/idle rpm.
 
Second, don't waste your time "tuning" the EC2 = without a=20 load - you are simply wasting your time.  I can understand you = wanting to=20 play with it (who could resist {:>)), but that is all you are = accomplishing=20 without a prop load. 
 
Third, as many folks have already said there is = a safety=20 margin you are missing without the prop.  All it will take is one=20 unintended blip of the throttle to send the engine and gear box into = overspeed=20 and possibly cause damage or worst yet - injury. 
 
I can idle or fly my 13B with two injectors = disable with=20 absolutely no problem, so while one injector not firing would likely = cause some=20 uneven running and missing, it should not prevent the engine from = running under=20 normal conditions - like with a prop{:>).  At most you would = simply need=20 to enrichen the mixture control to compensate for the missing = fuel.  Again,=20 the most likely reason yours does not is lack of prop load.
 
Again, I understand your cautious approach and = the thrill=20 of hearing it purr - but, that said, there is nothing else you can do = that is=20 useful without the prop installed.  I guarantee that you will have = to=20 re-tune once you put the prop on.  If you are interested in details = of=20 exactly why you need  to have load, send me an off-line e=20 mail.
 
Also, as best I recall there are two MAP = defaults possible=20 depending on how you have your injector switches positioned when the = Power is=20 turned on and you are holding the store button in to reset the MAP back = to=20 default. 
 
 The Controllers  will default to = Tracy Crook's=20 Rensesis default mode  OR  will default to a = standard=20 13B generic map  depending on how your injector disable switches = are=20 positioned.  My engine ran better (before tuning) with controller B = than=20 A.  I think the reason is that with only 260 cc/min primary = injectors on=20 the Renesis compared to my 460 cc/min injectors on the 13B that Tracy's = default=20 is a bit too lean for my engine whereas the standard 13B default on is = about=20 right.
 
Since you have not had the snubber modification, = what=20 follows are the steps required for getting the default MAp you want on = either=20 controller.  The "Sneak Circuit" causes getting the correct default = to be a=20 bit involved:
 
Selecting EC2 MAP=20 Default

 To = select which=20 of the two possible MAP default modes (Tracy's personal or the generic = 13B=20 default settings) , you want, here are the procedures to follow (this is = only=20 for EC2s that still have the Sneak Circuit i.e. those that do not have = the=20 snubber fix).

To set the 13B generic=20  MAP default, power to the EC2 and injectors must=20 be OFF - BUT (BIG BUT!), the = injector disable=20 switches should BOTH be set to ON (the = position where=20 they would normally provide 12V to the injector)  (You may need to = pull a=20 CB/fuse to
remove power from your injectors with the injector = switches in=20 the ON
position).  Ok, why to you have to do=20 this?

The reason both injector switches = must=20 be ON (but  providing no power to the = injectors) is=20 that If either of your disable switches are = turned=20 OFF while doing this it
grounds the = cold start=20 circuit - and if you reset the controller in this =
condition(with the=20 cold-start circuit grounded) , it resets the MAP default to Tracy Crook's PERSONAL default MAP (i.e for a = Renesis=20 engine with smaller primary injectors)
rather than the generic 13B = default=20 of controller B. 

You set the switch to controller A and = put the=20 mode selector to mode "1"
(one).  You then push in the program = button=20 and hold it in while you turn
power on to the EC2 controller.  = Release=20 program button after 2-3 seconds
and you should have mode A = programmed to=20 its generic 13B default.  Same procedures for setting default = with/for=20 controller B selected

The reason you need to remove power from = the=20 injectors or otherwise make
certain there is no 12V to the = injectors =20 (by means OTHER  than using the =
injector=20 disable switches) is there is a sneak circuit in the EC2 which can =
provide=20 power to the EC2 through the power feed to the injectors - even =
though your=20 EC2 power switch may be off. 
 
If that configuration exists, then you may think you are = holding=20 the program button before you apply power - but in reality power is = already=20 there and therefore, you will not be
successful in causing the = controller to=20 go into the default MAP mode (for either default setting).  Now if = you only=20 have one switch that removes power both to the EC2 AND the
injectors = (like=20 say a MASTER switch) then that is the only switch you need
to worry=20 about.

So to summarize. If there is = any=20 power to the EC2 either with its switch turned on or = through sneak=20 circuit (if their is power to the injectors) - your EC2 WILL=20 NOT go into the default reset mode.  So ALL power to the EC2 must be off before=20 you press the store button.  Press and hold the Store button = and=20 then turn the power on.
 
 If the cold start circuit is grounded (if either or = both=20 injector switches are OFF) when you set the default, you will get = Tracy=20 Crook's personal default MAP setting.  So both injector switches = should be=20 ON (but with CB pulled so they provided no voltage to the injectors) if = you want=20 the generic 13B default MAP.
 
Hope this helps
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Staten" <Dastaten@earthlink.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:49 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Houston, we have a=20 problem...

> Chris = got it=20 running again today.. and he is 'getting the feel' for the
> = engine, and=20 starting it.
>
> This is still no-load, no instrumentation = engine=20 operation..
> Instrumentation is probably the next focus: EGT on = the=20 exhaust..
> calibrate oil temp and pressure probes, as well as = obtaining=20 fuel
> pressure senders.
>
> May take the radiator = drain=20 fitting out and use that as a temp sensing
> point, or have the = radiator=20 tapped at its discharge point for that
> purposes.
> =
>=20
> Ok....
> What we know:
>
> One of the = secondaries=20 had a poor connection and broken wire inside a
> crimp. This = caused an=20 intermittent power condition within one of the
> secondary fuel=20 injectors.
>
> This is the only repair made, and starting = was=20 possible after this. This
> is a very concerning failure mode. I = will=20 await Tracy's return to see
> what he thinks..
>
> B = runs=20 smoother than A. The only diff is an intake air temp probe on A
> = and=20 non-temp adjusted values on B.
>
> The EC2, as programmed = to=20 defaults, is somewhat rich in the no-load
> condition of our = street=20 ported (by us) engine. We are getting very good
> results with = manual=20 leaning and estimated revs in the 3-4000 range with
> a closed = throttle,=20 simply by using mixture to control the engine.
>
> None of = our runs=20 have been substantial enough to cause the thermostat to
> open on = the=20 coolant circuit. Engine makes hot oil and hot water, and
> sends = the hot=20 oil through the oil cooling system.
>
> Our RD1-B has oil=20 circulation, and is warm to the touch from the hot oil
> being = circulated=20 in it. There is minimal to no discernable drainage from
> the aft = oil=20 drain hole on the RD1-B. We have good oil in, and good oil
> out = from the=20 lower/forward drain hole, but none from the upper/aft one.
> I = have=20 aluminum tubing and tube nuts on this run. I will make a short
> = "soft=20 line" for this run, as well as for the oil feed (which is
> = currently a=20 stainless "hard line" run from the stock oil pressure sensor
> = port to=20 the redrive inlet port.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on the = injector power being a possible point of
> failure? Has anyone = else had a=20 single secondary injector (presumably
> staged) unpowered before = and had=20 a problem?
>
  ------=_NextPart_000_0E61_01C7A680.A6824B50--