X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2082694 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:39:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l53CcENI002061 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004e01c7a5dc$0e51ab90$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: A Learning opportunity was [FlyRotary] Houston, we have a problem... Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:38:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7A5BA.86F17660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7A5BA.86F17660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, Dave Don't get discouraged - or rather since that is understandable - get = over it! Look upon it as a "learning experience" {:>). Seriously, it can be discouraging to feel like you have lost ground, but = you'll get this fixed. The engine has run with the current set up so = you know its got to be something relatively simply like a loose = connection. You indicate you are getting spark, so that leaves fuel and = it sounds like that is your problem. One clue is you checked for power on the Resistors and found NONE? on = the secondary resistors? but found power on three of the injectors? = Rather strange. If I understood you correctly - that should not happens - as both = primary and secondary should be getting power through the 4 resistors. = There should be voltage to the primary resistors when your primary = injector switch is ON and there should be voltage to the secondary = resistors when your secondary injector switch is ON (and of course your = main power on). There should be voltage on the injector switch side of the resistors = (with the injector switches ON), there should also be voltage on the = injector side of the resistors and you should be power at all four = injectors when ever both injector switches are ON. If there is NOT then = you have a switch, wiring or resistor problem. Check with a voltohm = meter and make certain a resistor has not opened up (unlikely but could = happen) - that would prevent voltage to one of your injectors. =20 If so that implies either your injector disable switch for your = secondary is turned off (no power -but you have checked that) or you = have a loose connection. A click once in a while suggests perhaps an = intermittent connection. Here is something you can try even without the simulation mode = installed. In mode zero with your fuel pumps OFF and power to your EC2 = and the injector switches ON, push the program store button. =20 This mode acts like a the push of a primer button and the injectors (all = four) should click. They should click every time you push the store = button with mode zero selected on the thumb wheel. If it does - then = that indicates the EC2 is communicating with the injectors. So one of = you sit in the cockpit and periodically push the store button and the = other listen for the clicking of injectors. If the all four click each = time, then the EC2 is talking to them - if that is the case then I would = start looking elsewhere. I f you are getting sparks then it would appear the CAS is doing its job, = but there are two input wires from it to the EC2 - I am not certain the = effect if say one of the wires was disconnected and the other one was = still connected - it might be possible to get a spark it might not be = properly synchronized with the engine rotation - So just check all wires = to the CAS and make certain they make a good connection. That's all I can think of for the moment - more information as you get = it will be useful. Let us know what you find. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Houston, we have a problem... I plan to go back and read the list, espcially the stuff on Buly's = recent issues, HOWEVER, I went out to the airport after work today to show off my running = engine to him. I flipped the switches UP , hit the start button and = it started up. It ran for a bit fine, but since I was afraid I may be = running it too fast and don't want it to get too hot (if you remember we = do not have any sensors or the monitor hooked up yet, so we have been = VERY conservative since first start on Wednedsday) I throttled back to = slow down the engine. I must have throttled back too much and the = engine died. I have had this happen before, so I pushed the starter = button again and the engine just turned over and would not fire. = Sounded just like it did on Tuesday when we had the injector switches = reversed on/off...so, seemingly, no injectors. Nothing unusual = happened...no pop, no bang, no sparks, nothing. My ECU does not have the trouble shooting upgrade yet, so I checked = the plugs while turning over the engin with fuel pumps off (no prob on = as of yet) and I have spark. However, we do not seem to have any noise = coming from the injectors at all. I tried on both A and B to no avail. = After checking to see if any wires had come loose and other basic = trouble shooting, I was becoming frustrated (and a little angry) and for = the first time in my 4.9 year build I was feeling a bit discouraged. I am new to fuel injection and ECU's. Any quick guidance y'all may be = able to provide on where to start will be appreaciated. I did check to = see if the injectors were getting any power by using a test light where = the wire goes into the injector housing and three seem to be getting = power on both wires (both primaries and one secondary)....every once and = a while during this "test", I would hear a slight click, but that was = inconsistant. When I checked for power at the resistors (as our set up = uses them), the primaries did show power but the secondaries did not. This has probably all been coverd on the list and I will try to find = it, however, I am about to hit the sack since I get up at 4:30 am for = work and 10:15 pm is well past my bedtime I did take off tomorrow = and I hope to spend most of the day in the hangar, so any quick insight = that I can apply tomorrow is greatly appreciated. Heck, just y'all = allowing me to vent for a few minutes is reelly helpful. Thanks. All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7A5BA.86F17660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris, Dave
 
Don't get discouraged - or rather since that is=20 understandable - get over it!  Look upon it as a "learning = experience"=20 {:>).
 
Seriously, it can be discouraging to feel like = you have=20 lost ground, but you'll get this fixed.  The engine has run with = the=20 current set up so you know its got to be something relatively simply = like a=20 loose connection.  You indicate you are getting spark, so that = leaves fuel=20 and it sounds like that is your problem.
 
One clue is you checked for power on the = Resistors and=20 found NONE? on the secondary resistors? but found power on three of the=20 injectors?  Rather strange.
 
If I understood you correctly - that should not = happens -=20 as both primary and secondary should be getting power through the 4 = resistors.  There should be voltage to the primary resistors when = your=20 primary injector switch is ON and there should be voltage to the = secondary=20 resistors when your secondary injector switch is ON (and of course your = main=20 power on).
 
There should be voltage on the injector=20 switch side of the resistors (with the injector = switches ON),=20 there should also be voltage on the injector side = of the=20 resistors and you should be power at all four injectors when ever both = injector=20 switches are ON.  If there is NOT then you have a switch, wiring or = resistor problem.  Check with a voltohm meter and make certain a = resistor=20 has not opened up (unlikely but could happen)  - that would prevent = voltage=20 to one of your injectors. 
 
 If so that implies either your injector = disable=20 switch for your secondary is turned off (no power -but you have checked = that) or=20 you have a loose connection.  A click once in a while suggests = perhaps an=20 intermittent connection.
 
Here is something you can try even without the = simulation=20 mode installed.  In mode zero with your fuel pumps = OFF and=20 power to your EC2 and the injector switches ON, push = the=20 program store button. 
 
This mode acts like a the push of a primer = button and the=20 injectors (all four) should click.  They  should click = every time=20 you push the store button with mode zero selected on the thumb = wheel.  If=20 it does - then that indicates the EC2 is communicating with the=20 injectors.   So one of you sit in the cockpit and periodically = push=20 the store button and the other listen for the clicking of = injectors.  If=20 the all four click each time, then the EC2 is talking to them - if that = is the=20 case then I would start looking elsewhere.  I
 
f you are getting sparks then it would appear = the CAS is=20 doing its job, but there are two  input wires from it to the EC2 - = I am not=20 certain the effect if say one of the wires was disconnected and the = other one=20 was still connected - it might be possible to get a spark it might not = be=20 properly synchronized with the engine rotation - So just check all wires = to the=20 CAS and make certain they make a good connection.
 
That's all I can think of for the moment - more=20 information as you get it will be useful.
 
Let us know what you find.
 
 
Ed
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher Barber =
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 = 11:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Houston, = we have a=20 problem...

I plan to go back and read the list, = espcially=20 the stuff on Buly's recent issues, HOWEVER,
 
I went out to the airport after work = today to=20 show off my running engine to him.  I flipped the switches UP = <g>,=20 hit the start button and it started up.  It ran for a bit fine, = but since=20 I was afraid I may be running it too fast and don't want it to get too = hot (if=20 you remember we do not have any sensors or the monitor hooked up yet, = so we=20 have been VERY conservative since first start on Wednedsday) I = throttled back=20 to slow down the engine.  I must have throttled back too much and = the=20 engine died.  I have had this happen before, so I pushed the = starter=20 button again and the engine just turned over and would not fire.  = Sounded=20 just like it did on Tuesday when we had the injector switches reversed = on/off...so, seemingly, no injectors.  Nothing unusual = happened...no pop,=20 no bang, no sparks, nothing.
 
My ECU does not have the trouble = shooting upgrade=20 yet, so I checked the plugs while turning over the engin with  = fuel pumps=20 off (no prob on as of yet) and I have spark.  However, we do not = seem to=20 have any noise coming from the injectors at all.  I tried on both = A and B=20 to no avail.  After checking to see if any wires had come = loose and=20 other basic trouble shooting, I was becoming frustrated (and a little=20 angry) and for the first time in my 4.9 year build I = was=20 feeling a bit discouraged.
 
I am new to fuel injection and = ECU's.  Any=20 quick guidance y'all may be able to provide on where to start will be=20 appreaciated.  I did check to see if the injectors were getting = any power=20 by using a test light where the wire goes into the injector housing = and three=20 seem to be getting power on both wires (both primaries and one=20 secondary)....every once and a while during this "test", I would hear = a slight=20 click, but that was inconsistant.  When I checked for power at = the=20 resistors (as our set up uses them), the primaries did show power but = the=20 secondaries did not.
 
This has probably all been coverd on = the list and=20 I will try to find it, however, I am about to hit the sack since I get = up at=20 4:30 am for work and 10:15 pm is well past my bedtime <g>  = I did=20 take off tomorrow and I hope to spend most of the day in the hangar, = so any=20 quick insight that I can apply tomorrow is greatly appreciated.  = Heck,=20 just y'all allowing me to vent for a few minutes is reelly = helpful. =20 Thanks.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
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