X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 64 [XX] (25%) URL: HTTP is broken (25%) SPAMTRICK: obfuscated phone number (25%) SPAMTRICK: obfuscated phone number (25%) SPAMTRICK: obfuscated phone number Return-Path: Received: from mtai03.charter.net ([209.225.8.183] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTP id 1909294 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:11:33 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.225.8.183; envelope-from=GAMarr@Charter.Net Received: from aa07.charter.net ([10.20.200.159]) by mtai03.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.00 201-2186-121-20061213) with ESMTP id <20070308151047.XIRP21785.mtai03.charter.net@aa07.charter.net>; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:10:47 -0500 Received: from DB77R351 ([71.14.140.156]) by aa07.charter.net with ESMTP id <20070308151045.CGYU1413.aa07.charter.net@DB77R351>; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:10:45 -0500 From: "Giffen Marr" To: , References: <8C92EF1123E0161-4E4-2E7F@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:10:43 -0600 Message-ID: <00bb01c76193$f1658ec0$6401a8c0@DB77R351> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C76161.A6CB1EC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acdhj8McDohIfS0dQIixW1oWz/E7zgAAnFKg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <8C92EF1123E0161-4E4-2E7F@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> X-Chzlrs: 0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C76161.A6CB1EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two points: 1. if the aircraft was designed for the IO-360, then the 13B is a good choice. If the aircraft is designed for the 6 cyl. Lyc or TCM, the the 20B is the best choice. 2. Don't forget the weight and balance. the 360 and 13B come in about the same weight, so not much of a problem. The 20B comes in at a lower weight then the 6 cyl, so you are faced with a small weight and balance problem. If you try to use the 13B in place of the 6 cyl, you really have a big weight and balance problem. Remember the weights shown on the Lyc and TCM sites do not always include all the accessories. The weight you get on the www.Mistral-Engines.com site includes almost everything. Giff Marr LIV-P/Mistral 65% _____ From: wrjjrs@aol.com [mailto:wrjjrs@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Mike, a couple of points, first: if you are even considering a IO-360 you are building an older ES not the newer super ES correct? I mention this since the Super uses a 540 Continental 6 cylinder. Second: The Conti 6 or a lyc O or IO 540 weigh around 500# ready to operate. Those numbers are from the Lycoming web site and may be a bit optimistic. I would say at LEAST 500# for a 6 cylinder. So the 20B is still 50-90# lighter! The IO 360 weighs between 400-450# depending on configuration. A clean 13B setup and a IO-360 FWF are about equal in weight. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: ALVentures@cox.net To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Sent: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 7:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? So we have a data point. 20B FWF w/o prop ~425# How much does a IO-360 weigh w/o prop, including fluids & radiators? When comparing weights for liquid cooled you need to include the coolant and radiators, because the IO-360 needs neither. In both cases you generally do not include the oil. My estimates are that the IO-360 on a comparable FWF basis would be 40# less. But for the same power, you should compare to 265hp IO-540; which will be more than 425#. Keeping the 20B installation down to 425# required custom lightweight induction, exhaust, oil pan, etc. Al How much does a 12b weigh w/o prop, including turbo/supercharger, fluids & radiators? Mike LaFleur (dithering between 13b & 20b) ----- Original Message ---- From: Al Gietzen > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:58:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Al G dynoed his 20B at 295 hp @ 6800 RPM if I remember correctly. (might have been 285) Al chime in if you see this. The 20B is 50% bigger. (or 1/3 if you prefer) The engine simply doesn't have to be as highly stressed to produce power. For the ES GET THE 20B. You remember quite correctly; 290 @6800 (sea level, std day, and all that). More important to me with 2.17 : 1 re-drive, it's about 265 hp at 6300 (2900 at the prop), and 200 at an easy cruise rpm of 4800. That engine should go many hours at those conditions. If you want more horses, go with 2.85:1 re-drive. All up FWF weight (w/o prop) is about 425# including coolant and radiators. I have no first hand experience with the Renesis; but for an ES, I'd go with the 20B. Al _____ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C76161.A6CB1EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Two points:
1. if the = aircraft was=20 designed for the IO-360, then the 13B is a good choice. If the aircraft = is=20 designed for the 6 cyl. Lyc or TCM, the the 20B is the best = choice.
2. Don't = forget the=20 weight and balance. the 360 and 13B come in about the same weight, so = not much=20 of a problem. The 20B comes in at a lower weight then the 6 cyl, so = you are=20 faced with a small weight and balance problem. If you try to use the 13B = in=20 place of the 6 cyl, you really have a big weight and balance problem. = Remember=20 the weights shown on the Lyc and TCM sites do not always include all the = accessories. The weight you get on the www.Mistral-Engines.com site = includes=20 almost everything.
Giff = Marr
LIV-P/Mistral=20 65%

From: wrjjrs@aol.com [mailto:wrjjrs@aol.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: = Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES?

Mike, a couple of points, first: if you are even considering a = IO-360 you=20 are building an older ES not the newer super ES correct? I mention this = since=20 the Super uses a 540 Continental 6 cylinder. Second: The Conti 6 or a = lyc O or=20 IO 540=20 weigh around 500# ready to operate. Those numbers are from the Lycoming = web site=20 and may be a bit optimistic. I would say at LEAST 500# for a 6 cylinder. = So the=20 20B is still 50-90# lighter! The IO 360 weighs between 400-450# = depending on=20 configuration. A clean 13B setup and a IO-360 FWF are about equal in=20 weight.
Bill Jepson
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 ALVentures@cox.net
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Sent: Wed, 7 = Mar 2007=20 7:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair = ES?

 
So we=20 have a data point.

20B FWF w/o prop ~425#

How much does a = IO-360=20 weigh w/o prop, including fluids & radiators?
When=20 comparing weights for liquid cooled you need to include the coolant and=20 radiators, because the IO-360 needs neither.  In both cases you = generally=20 do not include the oil.  My estimates are that the IO-360 on a = comparable=20 FWF basis would be 40# less.  But for the same power, = you should=20 compare to 265hp IO-540; which will be more than = 425#.
Keeping=20 the 20B installation down to 425# required custom lightweight induction, = exhaust, oil pan, etc.
Al

How much does a 12b = weigh w/o=20 prop, including turbo/supercharger, fluids &=20 radiators?

Mike LaFleur (dithering between 13b &=20 20b)
----- = Original=20 Message ----
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:58:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: 20b=20 vs. Renesis for Lancair ES?
Al G dynoed his 20B at 295 hp @ = 6800 RPM if=20 I remember correctly. (might have been 285) Al chime in if you see this. = The 20B=20 is 50% bigger. (or 1/3 if you prefer) The engine simply doesn't have to = be as=20 highly stressed to produce power. For the ES GET THE = 20B.
 
You=20 remember quite correctly; 290 @6800 (sea level, std day, and all = that). =20 More important to me with 2.17 : 1 re-drive, it’s about 265 hp at = 6300 (2900 at=20 the prop), and 200 at an easy cruise rpm of 4800. That engine should go = many=20 hours at those conditions. If you want more horses, go with 2.85:1=20 re-drive.
All up=20 FWF weight (w/o prop) is about 425# including coolant and=20 radiators.
I have=20 no first hand experience with the Renesis; but for an ES, I’d go = with the=20 20B.
Al
 
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free = from AOL=20 at AOL.com.
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