X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTP id 1908167 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:30:26 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=CBarber@TexasAttorney.net Received: from [24.238.254.112] (helo=BLF) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1HP7Rs-000404-5y for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:29:40 -0500 From: "Christopher Barber" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:29:44 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1750_01C760EE.F5897DE0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 04a7e290e6af3b12d3631fa4f7b525ef239a348a220c2609a19c39b649108d394c18932c9e86d6df676ae045857c2f36350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 24.238.254.112 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1750_01C760EE.F5897DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You may want to look at Al's page at http://members.cox.net/alg3/airplane.htm for an installation of a 20b on a Velocity. No, not the same, but more similar than most other installations. He has dyno figures and more info.....yeah, he is an engineer and nice guy. I got to meet him at the Velocity Symposium last year north of Dallas. All the best, Chris -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Michael LaFleur Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:20 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Nope, it's a Cozy-IV I've been planning a supercharged Renesis, but the NA 20b got me thinking. But I have to look at weight/balance considerations. I was using the IO-360 as a baseline. My install would have a custom lightweight airbox, runners, manifold. (and anything else I can think of) Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: "wrjjrs@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 11:59:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Mike, a couple of points, first: if you are even considering a IO-360 you are building an older ES not the newer super ES correct? I mention this since the Super uses a 540 Continental 6 cylinder. Second: The Conti 6 or a lyc O or IO 540 weigh around 500# ready to operate. Those numbers are from the Lycoming web site and may be a bit optimistic. I would say at LEAST 500# for a 6 cylinder. So the 20B is still 50-90# lighter! The IO 360 weighs between 400-450# depending on configuration. A clean 13B setup and a IO-360 FWF are about equal in weight. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: ALVentures@cox.net To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Sent: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 7:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? So we have a data point. 20B FWF w/o prop ~425# How much does a IO-360 weigh w/o prop, including fluids & radiators? When comparing weights for liquid cooled you need to include the coolant and radiators, because the IO-360 needs neither. In both cases you generally do not include the oil. My estimates are that the IO-360 on a comparable FWF basis would be 40# less. But for the same power, you should compare to 265hp IO-540; which will be more than 425#. Keeping the 20B installation down to 425# required custom lightweight induction, exhaust, oil pan, etc. Al How much does a 12b weigh w/o prop, including turbo/supercharger, fluids & radiators? Mike LaFleur (dithering between 13b & 20b) ----- Original Message ---- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:58:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES? Al G dynoed his 20B at 295 hp @ 6800 RPM if I remember correctly. (might have been 285) Al chime in if you see this. The 20B is 50% bigger. (or 1/3 if you prefer) The engine simply doesn't have to be as highly stressed to produce power. For the ES GET THE 20B. You remember quite correctly; 290 @6800 (sea level, std day, and all that). More important to me with 2.17 : 1 re-drive, it’s about 265 hp at 6300 (2900 at the prop), and 200 at an easy cruise rpm of 4800. That engine should go many hours at those conditions. If you want more horses, go with 2.85:1 re-drive. All up FWF weight (w/o prop) is about 425# including coolant and radiators. I have no first hand experience with the Renesis; but for an ES, I’d go with the 20B. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_1750_01C760EE.F5897DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You may = want to look=20 at Al's page at http://members.cox.net/= alg3/airplane.htm for=20 an installation of a 20b on a Velocity.  No, not the same, but more = similar=20 than most other installations.  He has dyno figures and more = info.....yeah,=20 he is an engineer and nice guy.  I got to meet him at the Velocity=20 Symposium last year north of Dallas.
 
 
All the=20 best,
 
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of = Michael=20 LaFleur
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:20 = AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. = Renesis=20 for Lancair ES?

Nope,=20 it's a Cozy-IV

I've been planning a supercharged Renesis, but = the NA=20 20b got me thinking.
But I have to look at weight/balance = considerations.=20 I was using the IO-360 as a baseline.
My install would have a = custom=20 lightweight airbox, runners, manifold. (and anything else I can think=20 of)

Mike LaFleur

-----=20 Original Message ----
From: "wrjjrs@aol.com" = <wrjjrs@aol.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Wednesday, March 7, 2007 11:59:15 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b = vs.=20 Renesis for Lancair ES?

Mike, a couple of points, first: if you are even considering a = IO-360 you=20 are building an older ES not the newer super ES correct? I mention = this since=20 the Super uses a 540 Continental 6 cylinder. Second: The Conti 6 or a = lyc O or=20 IO 540 weigh around 500# ready to operate. Those = numbers are=20 from the Lycoming web site and may be a bit optimistic. I would say at = LEAST=20 500# for a 6 cylinder. So the 20B is still 50-90# lighter! The IO 360 = weighs=20 between 400-450# depending on configuration. A clean 13B setup and a = IO-360=20 FWF are about equal in weight.
Bill Jepson
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 ALVentures@cox.net
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Sent: Wed, 7 = Mar 2007=20 7:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair = ES?

 
So=20 we have a data point.

20B FWF w/o prop ~425#

How much = does a=20 IO-360 weigh w/o prop, including fluids & = radiators?
When=20 comparing weights for liquid cooled you need to include the coolant = and=20 radiators, because the IO-360 needs neither.  In both cases you = generally=20 do not include the oil.  My estimates are that the IO-360 on a = comparable=20 FWF basis would be 40# less.  But for the same power, = you should=20 compare to 265hp IO-540; which will be more than = 425#.
Keeping = the 20B=20 installation down to 425# required custom lightweight induction, = exhaust, oil=20 pan, etc.
Al

How much does a = 12b weigh=20 w/o prop, including turbo/supercharger, fluids = &=20 radiators?

Mike LaFleur (dithering between 13b &=20 20b)
----- Original=20 Message ----
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:58:06 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 20b vs. Renesis for Lancair ES?
Al G dynoed his 20B at 295 hp = @ 6800 RPM=20 if I remember correctly. (might have been 285) Al chime in if you see = this.=20 The 20B is 50% bigger. (or 1/3 if you prefer) The engine simply = doesn't have=20 to be as highly stressed to produce power. For the ES GET THE=20 20B.
 
You=20 remember quite correctly; 290 @6800 (sea level, std day, and all = that). =20 More important to me with 2.17 : 1 re-drive, it=92s about 265 hp at = 6300 (2900=20 at the prop), and 200 at an easy cruise rpm of 4800. That engine = should go=20 many hours at those conditions. If you want more horses, go with = 2.85:1=20 re-drive.
All up=20 FWF weight (w/o prop) is about 425# including coolant and=20 radiators.
I have=20 no first hand experience with the Renesis; but for an ES, I=92d go = with the=20 20B.
Al
 
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free = from=20 AOL at AOL.com.

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