X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] Return-Path: Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.115] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.6) with ESMTP id 1862676 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:48:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.131.115; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from mwebmail09.att.net ([204.127.135.30]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <200702260048011110092c4ge>; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:48:01 +0000 Received: from [4.245.36.19] by mwebmail09.att.net; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:47:55 +0000 From: keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer) To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:47:55 +0000 Message-Id: <022620070047.3633.45E22E390002DAD400000E312160376021019D9B040A05@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jul 31 2006) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_3633_1172450875_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_3633_1172450875_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thomas, I did not mention the torque path but as Lynn pointed out the drag and street racers start to have problems breaking housings and dowels at insane rpm (9-10,000) , power/boost levels (3-500 hp+) and with violent launch and shift forces........Never will our A/C applications see the kinds of torque forces , rpm or boost that cause the racers to break things........IMHO -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from "Thomas y Reina Jakits" : -------------- I thought you must have done your homework (research) before laying out that much for the redrive. My concern is not with the prop/psru/engine weight, but with the "torque-return-path" to the airframe from the prop. As Lynn mentioned Rotaries do "interesting" things when you get that torque to high. You ARE using a psru, so the return torque is a lot higher than what the engine dishes out. The Mistral-"system" is lot more "streamlined", than your different front(rear-housing) and PSRU. It should work just fine, though depending how much power you send through... I wish I where there, ....to have to worry about engine-installation...:) Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate Thomas, I really am not overly concerned about the "Mistral" mount plate on my stock Mazda 13B......It mounts to my 13B exactly like it does on the "Mistral" 13B........Another feature of my installation is the moment arm of my engine is considerably less because my redrive is one of Tracy's 2.85 units which weighs less than the "Mistral" unit. I was in contact with Francois throughout my 2 year wait to aquire the backplate........Thanks for the concern and comments from both you and Lynn........ -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from "Thomas y Reina Jakits" : -------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas y Reina Jakits To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate Kelly, maybe you should talk to Francois about your specific installation, ....again. He would be the one to answer. Just looking through their line-up, attached a pics from the Mistral site. Pic1shows that their package is very streamlined/integrated. Website says lots of FE-analyses. Your package may differ and torsional intergrity may look different... Thomas PS: Pic 1 follows without comment.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Lehanover@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:07 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate In a message dated 2/24/2007 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, keltro@att.net writes: Lynn, And here I sit with a "Mistral" mount plate residing where the stock front cover used to be on my 13B.......It allows the use of a standard Lycoming "Dynafocal" mount ring to bolt my engine to my "Dyke Delta".....What do you think are the chances of my normally aspirated rotary from over-stressing its end-plates and rotor housings......."Mistral" does have provisions for using a four point bed type mount on the 13B (using their redrive) and it is required on their 20B , three rotor engine ......... Attached photo is of "Mistral" 13B on a Glasair project of one the rotary group, Steve Thomas in Calif.......Hope you do not mind Steve!! -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold Francios Had the reduction unit in the motor tent at Sun & Fun about 5 years ago, looking like a lost puppy. They had been trying to get the Piper to fly long enough without frying the oil so they could have it on display at the flight line. No dice. I talked to him for a very long time. He took notes. They are all engineers, and trust math to get them out of anything. So they calculated everything, and on paper there would be enough oil cooling to do the job. Well that test location was in Florida before Global warming had died down. I suggested best power was down around 160 degrees max, and he was sad. The coolers were big enough. The flow rate was high enough. Airflow through the coolers was high enough. The oil temp would just slowly climb into the red 230-240-250 and land again. They didn't realize the Mazda pump was designed to work OK at 2,000 crankshaft RPM. So, at 6,000 RPM it foams the daylights out of the oil. And air in the oil is an insulator, and the effect is that the coolers get smaller with time. The oil pump has a front and rear segment and those are shaded just a bit to reduce noise. Both must pull suction oil from the back end so the number of sharp corners the oil sees inside the pump is more than a normal pump. Plus, the higher flow was unhappy with the tiny bug screen at the end of a sharp edged tube in the pickup. So, there was a vena contracta problem. So, they took off the bug screen and it started working well. They took out the airplane oil and put in car oil Fewer polymers, and it worked better. They made up a dual pickup casting to feed both ends of the pump like the FD oil pump and everything is fine. The point of the story is that the mechanical parts have many actual hours of flying in a real airplane in hot weather. So, it is thoroughly test in a real life situation. Their front Iron and mount is thicker and stiffer than the stock stuff. There will be no problems. Lynn E. Hanover AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_3633_1172450875_0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thomas,
    I did not mention the torque path but as Lynn pointed out the drag and
street racers start to have problems breaking housings and dowels at insane
rpm (9-10,000) , power/boost levels (3-500 hp+) and with violent  launch
and shift forces........Never will our A/C applications see the kinds of torque
forces , rpm or boost that cause the racers to break things........IMHO 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold




-------------- Original message from "Thomas y Reina Jakits" <rijakits@cwpanama.net>: --------------

I thought you must have done your homework (research) before laying out that much for the redrive.
My concern is not with the prop/psru/engine weight, but with the "torque-return-path" to the airframe from the prop.
As Lynn mentioned Rotaries do "interesting" things when you get that torque to high.
You ARE using a psru, so the return torque is a lot higher than what the engine dishes out.
The Mistral-"system" is lot more "streamlined", than your different front(rear-housing) and PSRU.
It should work just fine, though depending how much power you send through...
 
I wish I where there, ....to have to worry about engine-installation...:)
 
Thomas
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 6:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate

Thomas,
     I really am not overly concerned about the "Mistral" mount plate
on my stock Mazda 13B......It mounts to my 13B exactly like it does
on the "Mistral" 13B........Another feature of my installation is the
moment arm of my engine is considerably less because my redrive
is one of Tracy's 2.85 units which weighs less than the "Mistral" unit.
    I was in contact with Francois throughout my 2 year wait to aquire
the backplate........Thanks for the concern and comments from both
you and Lynn........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold




-------------- Original message from "Thomas y Reina Jakits" <rijakits@cwpanama.net>: --------------

 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate

Kelly,
maybe you should talk to Francois about your specific installation, ....again.
He would be the one to answer.
Just looking through their line-up, attached a pics from the Mistral site.
Pic1shows that their package is very streamlined/integrated. Website says lots of FE-analyses.
Your package may differ and torsional intergrity may look different...
 
 
Thomas 
 
PS: Pic 1 follows without comment....
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate

In a message dated 2/24/2007 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, keltro@att.net writes:
Lynn,
   And here I sit with a "Mistral" mount plate residing where the
stock front cover used to be on my 13B.......It allows the use of
a standard Lycoming "Dynafocal" mount ring to bolt my engine
to my "Dyke Delta".....What do you think are the chances of my
normally aspirated rotary from over-stressing its end-plates and
rotor housings......."Mistral" does have provisions for using a
four point bed type mount on the 13B (using their redrive) and
it is required on their 20B , three rotor engine ......... Attached
photo is of "Mistral" 13B on a Glasair project of one the rotary
group, Steve Thomas in Calif.......Hope you do not mind Steve!!
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
Francios Had the reduction unit in the motor tent at Sun & Fun about 5 years ago, looking like a lost puppy. They had been trying to get the Piper to fly long enough without frying the oil so they could have it on display at the flight line. No dice. I talked to him for a very long time. He took notes. They are all engineers, and trust math to get them out of anything.
 
So they calculated everything, and on paper there would be enough oil cooling to do the job.
Well that test location was in Florida before Global warming had died down. I suggested best power was down around 160 degrees max, and he was sad.  The coolers were big enough. The flow rate was high enough. Airflow through the coolers was high enough.
The oil temp would just slowly climb into the red 230-240-250 and land again.
 
They didn't realize the Mazda pump was designed to work OK at 2,000 crankshaft RPM.
 
So, at 6,000 RPM it foams the daylights out of the oil. And air in the oil is an insulator, and the effect is that the coolers get smaller with time. The oil pump has a front and rear segment and those are shaded just a bit to reduce noise. Both must pull suction oil from the back end so the number of sharp corners the oil sees inside the pump is more than a normal pump.
Plus, the higher flow was unhappy with the tiny bug screen at the end of a sharp edged tube in the pickup. So, there was a vena contracta problem.  So, they took off the bug screen and it started working well. They took out the airplane oil and put in car oil Fewer polymers, and it worked better. They made up a dual pickup casting to feed both ends of the pump like the FD oil pump and everything is fine.
 
The point of the story is that the mechanical parts have many actual hours of flying in a real airplane in hot weather. So, it is thoroughly test in a real life situation.
 
Their front Iron and mount is thicker and stiffer than the stock stuff. There will be no problems.
 
Lynn E. Hanover



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