X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] Return-Path: Received: from [201.225.225.169] (HELO cwpanama.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.6) with ESMTP id 1862636 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:29:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.169; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.94.164] (HELO usuario5ebe209) by frontend3.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 101954693 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:36:41 -0500 Message-ID: <031501c7593d$21e918f0$a45ee0c9@usuario5ebe209> From: "Thomas y Reina Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:29:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0312_01C75913.35596450" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0312_01C75913.35596450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought you must have done your homework (research) before laying out = that much for the redrive. My concern is not with the prop/psru/engine weight, but with the = "torque-return-path" to the airframe from the prop. As Lynn mentioned Rotaries do "interesting" things when you get that = torque to high. You ARE using a psru, so the return torque is a lot higher than what the = engine dishes out. The Mistral-"system" is lot more "streamlined", than your different = front(rear-housing) and PSRU. It should work just fine, though depending how much power you send = through... I wish I where there, ....to have to worry about = engine-installation...:) Thomas ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate Thomas, I really am not overly concerned about the "Mistral" mount plate on my stock Mazda 13B......It mounts to my 13B exactly like it does on the "Mistral" 13B........Another feature of my installation is the=20 moment arm of my engine is considerably less because my redrive is one of Tracy's 2.85 units which weighs less than the "Mistral" = unit. I was in contact with Francois throughout my 2 year wait to aquire the backplate........Thanks for the concern and comments from both you and Lynn........ -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Thomas y Reina Jakits" = : --------------=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas y Reina Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate Kelly, maybe you should talk to Francois about your specific installation, = ....again. He would be the one to answer. Just looking through their line-up, attached a pics from the Mistral = site. Pic1shows that their package is very streamlined/integrated. Website = says lots of FE-analyses. Your package may differ and torsional intergrity may look = different... Thomas=20 PS: Pic 1 follows without comment.... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:07 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount plate In a message dated 2/24/2007 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, = keltro@att.net writes: Lynn, And here I sit with a "Mistral" mount plate residing where = the stock front cover used to be on my 13B.......It allows the use = of a standard Lycoming "Dynafocal" mount ring to bolt my engine to my "Dyke Delta".....What do you think are the chances of my normally aspirated rotary from over-stressing its end-plates and rotor housings......."Mistral" does have provisions for using a four point bed type mount on the 13B (using their redrive) and it is required on their 20B , three rotor engine ......... = Attached photo is of "Mistral" 13B on a Glasair project of one the rotary group, Steve Thomas in Calif.......Hope you do not mind Steve!! -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 Francios Had the reduction unit in the motor tent at Sun & Fun = about 5 years ago, looking like a lost puppy. They had been trying to = get the Piper to fly long enough without frying the oil so they could = have it on display at the flight line. No dice. I talked to him for a = very long time. He took notes. They are all engineers, and trust math to = get them out of anything. So they calculated everything, and on paper there would be enough = oil cooling to do the job.=20 Well that test location was in Florida before Global warming had = died down. I suggested best power was down around 160 degrees max, and = he was sad. The coolers were big enough. The flow rate was high enough. = Airflow through the coolers was high enough. The oil temp would just slowly climb into the red 230-240-250 and = land again. They didn't realize the Mazda pump was designed to work OK at = 2,000 crankshaft RPM. So, at 6,000 RPM it foams the daylights out of the oil. And air in = the oil is an insulator, and the effect is that the coolers get smaller = with time. The oil pump has a front and rear segment and those are = shaded just a bit to reduce noise. Both must pull suction oil from the = back end so the number of sharp corners the oil sees inside the pump is = more than a normal pump.=20 Plus, the higher flow was unhappy with the tiny bug screen at the = end of a sharp edged tube in the pickup. So, there was a vena contracta = problem. So, they took off the bug screen and it started working well. = They took out the airplane oil and put in car oil Fewer polymers, and it = worked better. They made up a dual pickup casting to feed both ends of = the pump like the FD oil pump and everything is fine.=20 The point of the story is that the mechanical parts have many = actual hours of flying in a real airplane in hot weather. So, it is = thoroughly test in a real life situation.=20 Their front Iron and mount is thicker and stiffer than the stock = stuff. There will be no problems. Lynn E. Hanover -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's = free from AOL at AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0312_01C75913.35596450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I thought you must have done your = homework=20 (research) before laying out that much for the redrive.
My concern is not with the = prop/psru/engine weight,=20 but with the "torque-return-path" to the airframe from the = prop.
As Lynn mentioned Rotaries do = "interesting" things=20 when you get that torque to high.
You ARE using a psru, so the return = torque is a lot=20 higher than what the engine dishes out.
The Mistral-"system" is lot more = "streamlined",=20 than your different front(rear-housing) and PSRU.
It should work just fine, though = depending how much=20 power you send through...
 
I wish I where there, ....to have to = worry about=20 engine-installation...:)
 
Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 = 6:05=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: motor = mount=20 plate

Thomas,
     I really am not overly concerned about = the=20 "Mistral" mount plate
on my stock Mazda 13B......It mounts to my 13B exactly like it = does
on the "Mistral" 13B........Another feature of my = installation is=20 the
moment arm of my engine is considerably less because my = redrive
is one of Tracy's 2.85 units which weighs less than the "Mistral" = unit.
    I was in contact with Francois throughout my 2 = year=20 wait to aquire
the backplate........Thanks for the concern and comments from = both
you and Lynn........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20




--------------=20 Original message from "Thomas y Reina Jakits" = <rijakits@cwpanama.net>:=20 --------------

 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Thomas y=20 Reina Jakits
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: motor mount = plate

Kelly,
maybe you should talk to Francois about your = specific=20 installation, ....again.
He would be the one to answer.
Just looking through their line-up, = attached a pics=20 from the Mistral site.
Pic1shows that their package is very=20 streamlined/integrated. Website says lots of = FE-analyses.
Your package may differ and torsional intergrity = may look=20 different...
 
 
Thomas 
 
PS: Pic 1 follows without = comment....
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, February = 24, 2007=20 9:07 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = motor mount=20 plate

In a message dated 2/24/2007 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard = Time, keltro@att.net writes:
Lynn,
   And here I sit with a "Mistral" mount plate = residing=20 where the
stock front cover used to be on my 13B.......It allows the = use=20 of
a standard Lycoming "Dynafocal" mount ring to bolt my=20 engine
to my "Dyke Delta".....What do you think are the = chances of=20 my
normally aspirated rotary from over-stressing its = end-plates=20 and
rotor housings......."Mistral" does have provisions for = using=20 a
four point bed type mount on the 13B (using their redrive)=20 and
it is required on their 20B , three rotor=20 engine ......... Attached
photo is of "Mistral" 13B on a Glasair project of one the=20 rotary
group, Steve Thomas in Calif.......Hope you do not mind=20 Steve!!
--
Kelly Troyer =
"Dyke=20 Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =
Francios Had the reduction unit in the motor tent at=20 Sun & Fun about 5 years ago, looking like a lost puppy. = They had=20 been trying to get the Piper to fly long enough without frying the = oil so=20 they could have it on display at the flight line. No dice. I = talked to him=20 for a very long time. He took notes. They are all engineers, and = trust=20 math to get them out of anything.
 
So they calculated everything, and on paper there would be = enough oil=20 cooling to do the job.
Well that test location was in Florida before Global warming = had died=20 down. I suggested best power was down around 160 degrees max, and = he was=20 sad.  The coolers were big enough. The flow rate was high = enough.=20 Airflow through the coolers was high enough.
The oil temp would just slowly climb into the red 230-240-250 = and=20 land again.
 
They didn't realize the Mazda pump was designed to work OK at = 2,000=20 crankshaft RPM.
 
So, at 6,000 RPM it foams the daylights out of the oil. And = air in=20 the oil is an insulator, and the effect is that the coolers get = smaller=20 with time. The oil pump has a front and rear segment and those are = shaded=20 just a bit to reduce noise. Both must pull suction oil from the = back end=20 so the number of sharp corners the oil sees inside the pump is = more than a=20 normal pump.
Plus, the higher flow was unhappy with the tiny bug screen at = the end=20 of a sharp edged tube in the pickup. So, there was a vena = contracta=20 problem.  So, they took off the bug screen and it started = working=20 well. They took out the airplane oil and put in car oil Fewer = polymers,=20 and it worked better. They made up a dual pickup casting to feed = both ends=20 of the pump like the FD oil pump and everything is fine.
 
The point of the story is that the mechanical parts have many = actual=20 hours of flying in a real airplane in hot weather. So, it is = thoroughly=20 test in a real life situation.
 
Their front Iron and mount is thicker and stiffer than the = stock=20 stuff. There will be no problems.
 
Lynn E. Hanover



AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's = free=20 from AOL at AOL.com. = ------=_NextPart_000_0312_01C75913.35596450--