X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 30 [X] Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao11.cox.net ([68.230.241.28] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.5) with ESMTP id 1784004 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:29:16 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.28; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao11.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.03 201-2131-130-104-20060516) with ESMTP id <20070123022828.NFTY25875.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:28:28 -0500 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.132.90]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id ESUm1W00d1xAn3c0000000; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:28:46 -0500 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: alcohol in fuel Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:28:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c73e96$2b096140$6400a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C73E53.1CE62140" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C73E53.1CE62140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the reality is that we need to make every effort to avoid auto = fuels with ethanol in our fiberglass tanks. Best I can tell is that the = Jeffco is the most resistant best bet for coating. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schertz Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 5:16 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alcohol in fuel =20 Charlie Smith, who used to be on the list but isn't any more is an industrial chemist. He is building the same plane as I am, and we use = the Aeropoxy system. As a test, I made up some samples (1" square pieces of fiberglass) and coated them with Jeffco 9700 FCR. He made up some = samples coated with Aeropoxy. He then weighed them and then soaked them in 10 = (or 15?)% alcohol in gasoline. The Jeffco samples did swell some and gain = some weight, but remained intact. The Aeropoxy samples flaked off and disintegrated. =20 Our interpretation was that the Jeffco coating is fine, but we are still concerned about the joint where the wing skin is bonded on as the last = step to closing the wing. That area is impossible to coat with the Jeffco. = That bonding agent is a Hysol material that we have not tested with the = alcohol. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Maher =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alcohol in fuel =20 I used both the Aeropoxy and West Systems in the construction of my = integral fuel tank. I can now confirm that the tank has been severely deteriorated by the = use of auto fuel, mostly in the last year or two since ethanol has been added. Jim Dyke Delta N11XD Dale Rogers wrote: To put a bit of perspective on this, one will be hard pressed to find a=20 laminating epoxy that is in the 100:25 range, such as Al W wrote. E-Z Poxy 100:45 by weight MGS 285/287 (and 335) 100:45 by weight Pro-Set 100:30 by weight AEROPOXY is 100:27 by weight=20 ACSpruce's data on the West System 105/205 spec was "5:1"=20 which suggests it is a volume measurement, but it doesn't have=20 the Rutan Blessing, last I knew. IIRC, Perry Mick used MGS 335 and runs auto fuel in his EZ. Al Gietzen wrote:=20 Al W wrote: =20 After flying for six years, finally removed and disassembled my glass = and foam header tank. During those six years I periodically used ethanol = fuel and whatever. Always used auto fuel. No evidence of degradation of any component....soft aluminum, foam, epoxy. All looks perfect.=20 =20 That's good news. =20 Just a reminder, all epoxy that is fuel exposed must be high ratio type. Like 4 to 1. 50/50 ratio epoxies can NOT handle "fuel" over time. =20 That's bad news. Should I conclude from this that EZ-poxy (44-56 by = weight) will NOT handle fuel with ethanol? I assume when you say "fuel" you = mean fuel with ethanol, since experience has shown that EZ-poxy has handled = auto fuel for periods of 15 years in some EZs. =20 Al G =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C73E53.1CE62140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think the reality is that we = need to make every effort to avoid auto fuels with ethanol in our fiberglass tanks. =  Best I can tell is that the Jeffco is the most resistant best bet for = coating.

 

Al G

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schertz
Sent: Monday, January 22, = 2007 5:16 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = alcohol in fuel

 

Charlie Smith, who used to = be on the list but isn't any more is an industrial chemist. He is building the = same plane as I am, and we use the Aeropoxy system. As a test, I made up some = samples (1" square pieces of fiberglass) and coated them with Jeffco 9700 = FCR. He made up some samples coated with Aeropoxy. He then weighed them and then = soaked them in 10 (or 15?)% alcohol in gasoline. The Jeffco samples did swell = some and gain some weight, but remained intact. The Aeropoxy samples flaked off = and disintegrated.

 

Our interpretation was that = the Jeffco coating is fine, but we are still concerned about the joint where = the wing skin is bonded on as the last step to closing the wing. That area = is impossible to coat with the Jeffco. That bonding agent is a Hysol = material that we have not tested with the alcohol.

Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045

=

----- Original Message = -----

From: James Maher

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:33 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: alcohol in fuel

 

I used both the Aeropoxy and West Systems in = the construction of my integral fuel tank.

I can now confirm that the tank has been = severely deteriorated by the use of auto fuel, mostly in the last year or two = since ethanol has been added.

Jim

Dyke Delta N11XD

Dale Rogers = <dale.r@cox.net> = wrote:

To put a bit of perspective on this, one will = be hard pressed to find a
laminating epoxy that is in the 100:25 range, such as Al W wrote.


E-Z Poxy  100:45 by weight

MGS 285/287 (and 335)  100:45 by weight

Pro-Set 100:30 by weight

AEROPOXY is 100:27 by weight

ACSpruce's data on the West System 105/205 spec was "5:1"
which suggests it is a volume measurement, but it doesn't have
the Rutan Blessing, last I knew.

IIRC, Perry Mick used MGS 335 and runs auto fuel in his EZ.


Al Gietzen wrote:

Al W wrote:

 

After flying for six = years, finally removed and disassembled my glass and

foam header tank. During = those six years I periodically used ethanol fuel

and whatever. Always used = auto fuel.  No evidence of degradation of any

component....soft = aluminum, foam, epoxy. All looks perfect.

 

That’s good news.

 

Just a reminder, all epoxy = that is fuel exposed must be high ratio type.

Like 4 to 1.   = 50/50 ratio epoxies can NOT handle “fuel” over = time.

 

That’s bad news.  Should I conclude from this that EZ-poxy (44-56 by = weight) will NOT handle fuel with ethanol?  I assume when you say = “fuel” you mean fuel with ethanol, since experience has shown that EZ-poxy has = handled auto fuel for periods of 15 years in some EZs.

 

Al = G

 

 

--    Homepage:  =
http://www.flyrotary.com/    Archive and =
UnSub:   =
http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/

 

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