X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 1 [X] Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.4) with ESMTP id 1716549 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:23:22 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-100-190.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.100.190]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id kBQJMJDj026955 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:22:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001401c72923$303fcbf0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:22:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C728F9.471191D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C728F9.471191D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, I'm envious- which model Garmin???? Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Joe, is the advance in the Micro Tech based only on rpm? If so, 35 = deg at 5000 rpm & WOT at sea level is on the edge. Is there a way to = alter advance with manifold pressure? I was able to get what I think was detonation on the Renesis with = too much advance at WOT but I didn't note exactly what the timing was at = the time. I was in a big hurry to back it off to avoid damage. The EC2 = (Renesis version) would give a max advance of 39 degrees if adjusted to = the advance limit in Mode 8 so it was somewhere between 29 and 39 deg. = BTDC at the time. The symptom felt like a single violent miss that = happened occasionally when at full throttle. It is possible that the = miss was caused by something else but it did go away when I backed off = the advance. Tracy (gotta Garmin for Christmas : )=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Yep, I'm running the MicroTech - but it sounds like it works pretty = much the same. You set static timing at 5-10deg ATDC and then there are = 15 settings for the RPM ranges from 1000-9000+. I'll have to make a trip = up to the airport to double check what I have set - but IIRC it is set = to advance 35deg. in the range of 1000-7000. But I can't remember for = sure - I did that part of the tuning last Spring and haven't looked at = it since. I only play with the mixture setting now - always searching = for the extra couple hundred RPM and keeping EGT's below 1500. =20 I want to go pull the engine from the airplane and tear it down to = see what's happened - but my workshop/garage is totally full of my = daughter's stuff! She sold her house and is moving into a new house - = but the new house doesn't close until mid-January L So, I'm stuck with = no where to work for 3 weeks ARRRGGGHHH. I'll have to figure something = out - or I'll go stir crazy!! =20 Joe =20 Ed, I forgot to mention that I think Joe is running something other = than an EC2 so it's timing set-up might be completely different. =20 =20 Tracy =20 Sorry, Tracy, I should have made it clearer that I was talking = about the crankangle sensor static timing set not the actually running = ignition timing. But, I believe that Joe was talking about the same = thing. =20 As I recall your default ignition timing for the EC2 is around = 25Deg (assuming the static was set at 35DEG BTDC). I am running mine = around 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in your estimation?? = If so, what would you recommend. =20 Ed =20 Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor = reference timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. = Either 35 or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at full = power for the 13B. =20 Tracy (having a Merry Christmas)=20 =20 Thanx Ed. I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.=20 =20 Have a very, very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and = others gift you with many aviation toys!) =20 Joe =20 =20 Joe, Sorry to hear about your problem but glad to hear you = brought her back safely. Does certainly appear you have a bad apex = seal. You might want to check your ignition timing. I once mistakenly = (of course - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to = 45 deg rather than 35. I noticed while flying that If I opened up the = throttle wide open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato = popping. Well did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the = center electrode ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and = cracked on the other two. Just lucky they didn't take out the apex = seal. So you might check that timing just to be certain. =20 "Merry Christmas"? =20 Ed =20 The weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for = flying - but a nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was = there tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I = went. I did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then = departed the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb = through VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the = edge of the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting = was about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts. I turned = around and headed back for Arlington and decided to ramp up the power to = ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In a few minutes I was = cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - = the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to 2300RPM. I immediately = throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward the airport. = Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the = airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn't give me more = than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering the = 45 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty = slow at the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to = taxi back to the hanger under power.=20 =20 At the hangar I double checked everything I could from the = cockpit - fuel pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at = 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it = monitors. So, I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop = through a number of times and it seemed that there was a couple places = where I should have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I = also notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch = long - that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a pusher). =20 I got the engine compression gage and proceeded to take the = spark plug out of the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't = remember there being a casing around the electrode - and why is that = casing sliding? Apparently the casing around the electrode broke = somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the = electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the electrode and even = sticks out a little from the end. =20 I put the compression gage on and it looks like I get = 30-30-70 when I turn the engine over. I tried this several times and = there is definitely a couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I = double check the location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly = even with the bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal = would come out. =20 I put two new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run = - 2300RPM rough is the best I could get. =20 Some time this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can = see the apex seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20 =20 Joe Hull (getting tired of little surprises in the air). Redmond/Seattle WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C728F9.471191D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey, I'm envious- which model=20 Garmin????
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, = 2006 1:40=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Joe, is the advance in the Micro Tech based only on rpm?  If = so, 35=20 deg at 5000 rpm & WOT at sea level is on the edge.  Is = there a=20 way to alter advance with manifold pressure?
 
  I was able to get what I think was detonation on the = Renesis with=20 too much advance at WOT but I didn't note exactly what the timing = was at=20 the time.  I was in a big hurry to back it off to avoid = damage.  The=20 EC2 (Renesis version) would give a max advance of 39 = degrees if=20 adjusted to the advance limit in Mode 8 so it was somewhere = between 29=20 and 39 deg. BTDC at the time.  The symptom felt like a = single=20 violent miss that happened occasionally when at full=20 throttle.  It is possible that the miss was=20 caused by something else but it did go away when I backed = off the=20 advance.
 
Tracy (gotta Garmin for Christmas : ) 
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe=20 Hull
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, = 2006 12:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Yep, = I=92m running=20 the MicroTech =96 but it sounds like it works pretty much the same. = You set=20 static timing at 5-10deg ATDC and then there are 15 settings for the = RPM=20 ranges from 1000-9000+. I=92ll have to make a trip up to the airport = to double=20 check what I have set =96 but IIRC it is set to advance 35deg. in = the range of=20 1000-7000. But I can=92t remember for sure =96 I did that part of = the tuning=20 last Spring and haven=92t looked at it since. I only play with the = mixture=20 setting now =96 always searching for the extra couple hundred RPM = and keeping=20 EGT=92s below 1500.

 

I want to = go pull=20 the engine from the airplane and tear it down to see what=92s = happened =96 but=20 my workshop/garage is totally full of my daughter=92s stuff! She = sold her=20 house and is moving into a new house =96 but the new house doesn=92t = close until=20 mid-January L  = So, I=92m=20 stuck with no where to work for 3 weeks ARRRGGGHHH. I=92ll have to = figure=20 something out =96 or I=92ll go stir = crazy!!

 

Joe

 

Ed, I = forgot to=20 mention that I think Joe is running something other than an EC2 so = it's=20 timing set-up might be completely different. =20

 

Tracy

 

Sorry, = Tracy,=20  I should have made it clearer that I was talking about the=20 crankangle sensor static timing set not the actually running = ignition=20 timing.  But, I believe that Joe was talking about the same=20 thing.

 

As I = recall your=20 default ignition timing for the EC2 is around 25Deg (assuming the = static=20 was set at 35DEG BTDC).  I am running mine around 30Deg for = take off=20 power- is that too much in your estimation??  If so, what = would you=20 recommend.

 

Ed

 

Keep in mind=20 that Ed was talking about the crank sensor reference timing = which has=20 nothing to do with actual ignition timing.  Either  35 = or 45=20 would would be way too much ignition advance at full power = for the=20 13B.

 

Tracy =20 (having a Merry = Christmas) 

 

Thanx Ed.=20 I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.=20

 

Have a very,=20 very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others gift = you with=20 many aviation toys!)

 

Joe

 

  

Joe, Sorry=20 to hear about your problem but glad to hear you brought her = back=20 safely.  Does certainly appear you have a bad apex = seal. =20 You might want to check your ignition timing.  I once = mistakenly=20 (of course - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my = static=20 timing to 45 deg rather than 35.  I noticed while flying = that If=20 I opened up the throttle wide open the note of the exhaust = changed to=20 a staccato popping.  Well did not fortunately lose an = apex seal=20 but I found the center electrode ceramic cone was missing for = two of=20 the 4 plugs and cracked on the other two.  Just lucky = they didn't=20 take out the apex seal.  So you might check that timing = just to=20 be certain.

 

"Merry=20 Christmas"?

 

Ed

 

The=20 weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying - = but a=20 nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was = there=20 tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so = up I=20 went. I did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice = and then=20 departed the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be = legal to=20 climb through VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the = airport=20 out to the edge of the Puget = Sound=20 and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting was about = 4400RPM=20 and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts.  I turned = around and=20 headed back for Arlington and decided to = ramp up=20 the power to ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In = a few=20 minutes I was cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. = Then all of=20 a sudden BAM - the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to=20 2300RPM.  I immediately throttled back and switched = tanks while=20 turning toward the airport. Altitude was 3200FT (about = 3000AGL) and=20 I was maybe 7 miles from the airport. The engine was running = real=20 rough and wouldn't give me more than 2300RPM. Even with that = little=20 bit of power I ended up entering the 45 to the pattern at = about 800=20 above pattern altitude. It was pretty slow at the airport so = I=20 easily made a normal landing and was able to taxi back to = the hanger=20 under power.

 

At the=20 hangar I double checked everything I could from the cockpit = - fuel=20 pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 = RPM,=20 MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it = monitors. So,=20 I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop = through a=20 number of times and it seemed that there was a couple places = where I=20 should have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. = I also=20 notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about = an inch=20 long - that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a=20 pusher).

 

I got the=20 engine compression gage and proceeded to take the spark plug = out of=20 the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't remember = there=20 being a casing around the electrode - and why is that casing = sliding?  Apparently the casing around the electrode = broke=20 somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways = down=20 the electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the = electrode and=20 even sticks out a little from the=20 end.

 

I put the=20 compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when I = turn the=20 engine over. I tried this several times and there is = definitely a=20 couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double check = the=20 location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even = with the=20 bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would = come=20 out.

 

I put two=20 new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - 2300RPM = rough is=20 the best I could get.

 

Some time=20 this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can see the = apex=20 seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20

 

Joe Hull=20 (getting tired of little surprises in the=20 air).

Redmond/Seattle=20 WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs

 

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