Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #34940
From: Michael LaFleur <mike.lafleur@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:21:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Let's all speak the same language.

References to timing should be from TDC, not from any other indicator or sensor setting.

Mr. Hanover,

Which were your references to?

Mike LaFleur


----- Original Message ----
From: Joe Hull <joeh@PilgrimTech.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:02:07 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft

Someone must love Tracy very much to give him a Garmin!! 

 

I wasn’t clear – I think my advance is 35deg starting from 5-10degATDC – so an absolute advance of 25-30deg. BTDC at 7000RPM – But again…that was a while ago, so I’ll have to re-check my setting.

 

The MicroTech has 4 areas for setting and customizing ignition timing.

  1. The standard RPM based advance-retard starting from ATDC
  2. 16 adjustments up or down to the RPM timing map based on Manifold pressure
  3. 16 adjustments up or down to the RPM timing map base on Air temperature
  4. Then some number of adjustments to differential spark timing between leading and trailing plug at different RPM. You can modify the trailing plug to fire 0-15degs after the leading plug.

 

The only one I ever played with was #1 (RPM one) – and that was 9 months ago when I did my initial tuning/timing. I’ve left the factory setup in place for the others (it was setup for a 13B NA Rotary from the factory).

 

Thanx,

Joe

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:40 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft

 

Joe, is the advance in the Micro Tech based only on rpm?  If so, 35 deg at 5000 rpm & WOT at sea level is on the edge.  Is there a way to alter advance with manifold pressure?

 

  I was able to get what I think was detonation on the Renesis with too much advance at WOT but I didn't note exactly what the timing was at the time.  I was in a big hurry to back it off to avoid damage.  The EC2 (Renesis version) would give a max advance of 39 degrees if adjusted to the advance limit in Mode 8 so it was somewhere between 29 and 39 deg. BTDC at the time.  The symptom felt like a single violent miss that happened occasionally when at full throttle.  It is possible that the miss was caused by something else but it did go away when I backed off the advance.

 

Tracy (gotta Garmin for Christmas : ) 

----- Original Message -----

From: Joe Hull

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:34 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft

 

Yep, I’m running the MicroTech – but it sounds like it works pretty much the same. You set static timing at 5-10deg ATDC and then there are 15 settings for the RPM ranges from 1000-9000+. I’ll have to make a trip up to the airport to double check what I have set – but IIRC it is set to advance 35deg. in the range of 1000-7000. But I can’t remember for sure – I did that part of the tuning last Spring and haven’t looked at it since. I only play with the mixture setting now – always searching for the extra couple hundred RPM and keeping EGT’s below 1500.

 

I want to go pull the engine from the airplane and tear it down to see what’s happened – but my workshop/garage is totally full of my daughter’s stuff! She sold her house and is moving into a new house – but the new house doesn’t close until mid-January L  So, I’m stuck with no where to work for 3 weeks ARRRGGGHHH. I’ll have to figure something out – or I’ll go stir crazy!!

 

Joe

 

Ed, I forgot to mention that I think Joe is running something other than an EC2 so it's timing set-up might be completely different. 

 

Tracy

 

Sorry, Tracy ,  I should have made it clearer that I was talking about the crankangle sensor static timing set not the actually running ignition timing.  But, I believe that Joe was talking about the same thing.

 

As I recall your default ignition timing for the EC2 is around 25Deg (assuming the static was set at 35DEG BTDC).  I am running mine around 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in your estimation??  If so, what would you recommend.

 

Ed

 

Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor reference timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing.  Either  35 or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at full power for the 13B.

 

Tracy  (having a Merry Christmas) 

 

Thanx Ed. I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.

 

Have a very, very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others gift you with many aviation toys!)

 

Joe

 

  

Joe, Sorry to hear about your problem but glad to hear you brought her back safely.  Does certainly appear you have a bad apex seal.  You might want to check your ignition timing.  I once mistakenly (of course - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to 45 deg rather than 35.  I noticed while flying that If I opened up the throttle wide open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato popping.  Well did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the center electrode ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and cracked on the other two.  Just lucky they didn't take out the apex seal.  So you might check that timing just to be certain.

 

"Merry Christmas"?

 

Ed

 

The weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying - but a nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was there tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then departed the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb through VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the edge of the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting was about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts.  I turned around and headed back for Arlington and decided to ramp up the power to ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In a few minutes I was cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to 2300RPM.  I immediately throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward the airport. Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn't give me more than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering the 45 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty slow at the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to taxi back to the hanger under power.

 

At the hangar I double checked everything I could from the cockpit - fuel pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it monitors. So, I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop through a number of times and it seemed that there was a couple places where I should have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I also notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch long - that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a pusher).

 

I got the engine compression gage and proceeded to take the spark plug out of the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't remember there being a casing around the electrode - and why is that casing sliding?  Apparently the casing around the electrode broke somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the electrode and even sticks out a little from the end.

 

I put the compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when I turn the engine over. I tried this several times and there is definitely a couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double check the location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even with the bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would come out.

 

I put two new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - 2300RPM rough is the best I could get.

 

Some time this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can see the apex seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.

 

Joe Hull (getting tired of little surprises in the air).

Redmond/Seattle WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs

 


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