X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 1 [X] Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc2-s38.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.4) with ESMTP id 1716453 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:42:50 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.174; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.250.77]) by bay0-omc2-s38.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:40:29 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:40:28 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.150.205 by BAY115-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:40:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.150.205] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:40:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C728F3.62AE1BD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.50.0034.2000 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:40:20 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Dec 2006 18:40:28.0969 (UTC) FILETIME=[50CC1190:01C7291D] Return-Path: lors01@msn.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C728F3.62AE1BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe, is the advance in the Micro Tech based only on rpm? If so, 35 deg = at 5000 rpm & WOT at sea level is on the edge. Is there a way to alter = advance with manifold pressure? I was able to get what I think was detonation on the Renesis with too = much advance at WOT but I didn't note exactly what the timing was at the = time. I was in a big hurry to back it off to avoid damage. The EC2 = (Renesis version) would give a max advance of 39 degrees if adjusted to = the advance limit in Mode 8 so it was somewhere between 29 and 39 deg. = BTDC at the time. The symptom felt like a single violent miss that = happened occasionally when at full throttle. It is possible that the = miss was caused by something else but it did go away when I backed off = the advance. Tracy (gotta Garmin for Christmas : )=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Yep, I'm running the MicroTech - but it sounds like it works pretty = much the same. You set static timing at 5-10deg ATDC and then there are = 15 settings for the RPM ranges from 1000-9000+. I'll have to make a trip = up to the airport to double check what I have set - but IIRC it is set = to advance 35deg. in the range of 1000-7000. But I can't remember for = sure - I did that part of the tuning last Spring and haven't looked at = it since. I only play with the mixture setting now - always searching = for the extra couple hundred RPM and keeping EGT's below 1500. =20 I want to go pull the engine from the airplane and tear it down to see = what's happened - but my workshop/garage is totally full of my = daughter's stuff! She sold her house and is moving into a new house - = but the new house doesn't close until mid-January L So, I'm stuck with = no where to work for 3 weeks ARRRGGGHHH. I'll have to figure something = out - or I'll go stir crazy!! =20 Joe =20 Ed, I forgot to mention that I think Joe is running something other = than an EC2 so it's timing set-up might be completely different. =20 =20 Tracy =20 Sorry, Tracy, I should have made it clearer that I was talking = about the crankangle sensor static timing set not the actually running = ignition timing. But, I believe that Joe was talking about the same = thing. =20 As I recall your default ignition timing for the EC2 is around 25Deg = (assuming the static was set at 35DEG BTDC). I am running mine around = 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in your estimation?? If so, = what would you recommend. =20 Ed =20 Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor reference = timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. Either 35 = or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at full power for the = 13B. =20 Tracy (having a Merry Christmas)=20 =20 Thanx Ed. I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.=20 =20 Have a very, very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and = others gift you with many aviation toys!) =20 Joe =20 =20 Joe, Sorry to hear about your problem but glad to hear you = brought her back safely. Does certainly appear you have a bad apex = seal. You might want to check your ignition timing. I once mistakenly = (of course - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to = 45 deg rather than 35. I noticed while flying that If I opened up the = throttle wide open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato = popping. Well did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the = center electrode ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and = cracked on the other two. Just lucky they didn't take out the apex = seal. So you might check that timing just to be certain. =20 "Merry Christmas"? =20 Ed =20 The weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying = - but a nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was there = tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I = did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then departed = the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb through = VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the edge of = the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting was = about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts. I turned around = and headed back for Arlington and decided to ramp up the power to = ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In a few minutes I was = cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - = the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to 2300RPM. I immediately = throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward the airport. = Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the = airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn't give me more = than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering the = 45 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty = slow at the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to = taxi back to the hanger under power.=20 =20 At the hangar I double checked everything I could from the = cockpit - fuel pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at = 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it = monitors. So, I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop = through a number of times and it seemed that there was a couple places = where I should have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I = also notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch = long - that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a pusher). =20 I got the engine compression gage and proceeded to take the = spark plug out of the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't = remember there being a casing around the electrode - and why is that = casing sliding? Apparently the casing around the electrode broke = somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the = electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the electrode and even = sticks out a little from the end. =20 I put the compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 = when I turn the engine over. I tried this several times and there is = definitely a couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double = check the location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even = with the bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would = come out. =20 I put two new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - = 2300RPM rough is the best I could get. =20 Some time this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can = see the apex seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20 =20 Joe Hull (getting tired of little surprises in the air). Redmond/Seattle WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C728F3.62AE1BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joe, is the advance in the Micro Tech based only on rpm?  If = so, 35=20 deg at 5000 rpm & WOT at sea level is on the edge.  Is = there a way=20 to alter advance with manifold pressure?
 
  I was able to get what I think was detonation on the Renesis = with=20 too much advance at WOT but I didn't note exactly what the timing = was at=20 the time.  I was in a big hurry to back it off to avoid = damage.  The=20 EC2 (Renesis version) would give a max advance of 39 = degrees if=20 adjusted to the advance limit in Mode 8 so it was somewhere = between 29=20 and 39 deg. BTDC at the time.  The symptom felt like a = single=20 violent miss that happened occasionally when at full=20 throttle.  It is possible that the miss was=20 caused by something else but it did go away when I backed off = the=20 advance.
 
Tracy (gotta Garmin for Christmas : ) 
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe=20 Hull
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, = 2006 12:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Yep, I=92m = running the=20 MicroTech =96 but it sounds like it works pretty much the same. You = set static=20 timing at 5-10deg ATDC and then there are 15 settings for the RPM = ranges from=20 1000-9000+. I=92ll have to make a trip up to the airport to double = check what I=20 have set =96 but IIRC it is set to advance 35deg. in the range of = 1000-7000. But=20 I can=92t remember for sure =96 I did that part of the tuning last = Spring and=20 haven=92t looked at it since. I only play with the mixture setting now = =96 always=20 searching for the extra couple hundred RPM and keeping EGT=92s below=20 1500.

 

I want to = go pull the=20 engine from the airplane and tear it down to see what=92s happened =96 = but my=20 workshop/garage is totally full of my daughter=92s stuff! She sold her = house and=20 is moving into a new house =96 but the new house doesn=92t close until = mid-January=20 L  So, = I=92m stuck=20 with no where to work for 3 weeks ARRRGGGHHH. I=92ll have to figure = something=20 out =96 or I=92ll go stir crazy!!

 

Joe

 

Ed, I = forgot to=20 mention that I think Joe is running something other than an EC2 so = it's timing=20 set-up might be completely different. =20

 

Tracy

 

Sorry, = Tracy, =  I should=20 have made it clearer that I was talking about the crankangle sensor = static=20 timing set not the actually running ignition timing.  But, I = believe=20 that Joe was talking about the same thing.

 

As I = recall your=20 default ignition timing for the EC2 is around 25Deg (assuming the = static was=20 set at 35DEG BTDC).  I am running mine around 30Deg for take = off power-=20 is that too much in your estimation??  If so, what would you=20 recommend.

 

Ed

 

Keep = in mind=20 that Ed was talking about the crank sensor reference timing which = has=20 nothing to do with actual ignition timing.  Either  35 = or 45=20 would would be way too much ignition advance at full power = for the=20 13B.

 

Tracy  (having=20 a Merry Christmas) 

 

Thanx = Ed. I'll=20 double check but pretty sure I'm at 35. =

 

Have = a very,=20 very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others gift you = with=20 many aviation toys!)

 

Joe

 

  

Joe, = Sorry to=20 hear about your problem but glad to hear you brought her back=20 safely.  Does certainly appear you have a bad apex = seal.  You=20 might want to check your ignition timing.  I once = mistakenly (of=20 course - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static = timing to=20 45 deg rather than 35.  I noticed while flying that If I = opened up=20 the throttle wide open the note of the exhaust changed to a = staccato=20 popping.  Well did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I = found=20 the center electrode ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 = plugs and=20 cracked on the other two.  Just lucky they didn't take out = the apex=20 seal.  So you might check that timing just to be=20 certain.

 

"Merry=20 Christmas"?

 

Ed

 

The weather=20 today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying - but a nice = hole=20 opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was there tinkering = with=20 the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I did = 4 touch=20 and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then departed the = pattern=20 toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb through VFR. = I flew=20 about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the edge of the = Puget Sound and enjoyed = just being in=20 the air. Power setting was about 4400RPM and I was loping = along at a=20 lazy 135kts.  I turned around and headed back for = Arlington and=20 decided to ramp up the power to ramming speed - errr I mean = cruising=20 speed. In a few minutes I was cruising along at 170kts at = about=20 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - the engine stumbled and = RPM's=20 dropped to 2300RPM.  I immediately throttled back and = switched=20 tanks while turning toward the airport. Altitude was 3200FT = (about=20 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the airport. The engine = was=20 running real rough and wouldn't give me more than 2300RPM. = Even with=20 that little bit of power I ended up entering the 45 to the = pattern at=20 about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty slow at the = airport so=20 I easily made a normal landing and was able to taxi back to = the hanger=20 under power.

 

At = the=20 hangar I double checked everything I could from the cockpit - = fuel=20 pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 = RPM,=20 MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it = monitors. So, I=20 shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop through a = number=20 of times and it seemed that there was a couple places where I = should=20 have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I also = notice=20 that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch = long -=20 that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a=20 pusher).

 

I = got the=20 engine compression gage and proceeded to take the spark plug = out of=20 the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't remember = there being=20 a casing around the electrode - and why is that casing = sliding? =20 Apparently the casing around the electrode broke somewhere = inside the=20 sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the electrode. = Each half=20 slides freely up and down the electrode and even sticks out a = little=20 from the end.

 

I = put the=20 compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when I = turn the=20 engine over. I tried this several times and there is = definitely a=20 couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double check = the=20 location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even = with the=20 bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would = come=20 out.

 

I = put two=20 new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - 2300RPM = rough is=20 the best I could get.

 

Some time=20 this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can see the = apex seals=20 - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20

 

Joe Hull=20 (getting tired of little surprises in the=20 air).

Redmond/Seattle=20 WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs

 

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