X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 1 [X] Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.4) with ESMTP id 1716295 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:45:02 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-100-190.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.100.190]) by ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id kBQHiBi5021670 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:44:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001b01c72915$7a6945c0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:44:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C728EB.913D7CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C728EB.913D7CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, so it sounds like your EC2 default (25Deg BTDC assuming static at 35 = deg) is about right for best power. Thanks Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Lynn's advice on timing is right-on for full power advance. 24 - 26 = is the range I have used.=20 I do see a slight improvement in fuel economy at low manifold = pressure when timing is increased to around 35 degrees when the manifold = pressure is down to ~16" Hg, (linear increase between 24 & 16" Hg.) and = the mixture is lean. The EC2 does this automatically so no need to = adjust in-flight. Car racers virtually never run at these conditions. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Sorry, Tracy, I should have made it clearer that I was talking = about the crankangle sensor static timing set not the actually running = ignition timing. But, I believe that Joe was talking about the same = thing. As I recall your default ignition timing for the EC2 is around 25Deg = (assuming the static was set at 35DEG BTDC). I am running mine around = 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in your estimation?? If so, = what would you recommend. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor reference = timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. Either 35 = or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at full power for the = 13B. Tracy (having a Merry Christmas)=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Thanx Ed. I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.=20 =20 Have a very, very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and = others gift you with many aviation toys!) =20 Joe =20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft =20 Joe, Sorry to hear about your problem but glad to hear you = brought her back safely. Does certainly appear you have a bad apex = seal. You might want to check your ignition timing. I once mistakenly = (of course - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to = 45 deg rather than 35. I noticed while flying that If I opened up the = throttle wide open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato = popping. Well did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the = center electrode ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and = cracked on the other two. Just lucky they didn't take out the apex = seal. So you might check that timing just to be certain. =20 "Merry Christmas"? =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Dead Rotor at 3000ft =20 The weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying = - but a nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was there = tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I = did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then departed = the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb through = VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the edge of = the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting was = about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts. I turned around = and headed back for Arlington and decided to ramp up the power to = ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In a few minutes I was = cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - = the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to 2300RPM. I immediately = throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward the airport. = Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the = airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn't give me more = than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering the = 45 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty = slow at the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to = taxi back to the hanger under power.=20 =20 At the hangar I double checked everything I could from the = cockpit - fuel pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at = 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it = monitors. So, I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop = through a number of times and it seemed that there was a couple places = where I should have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I = also notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch = long - that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a pusher). =20 I got the engine compression gage and proceeded to take the = spark plug out of the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't = remember there being a casing around the electrode - and why is that = casing sliding? Apparently the casing around the electrode broke = somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the = electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the electrode and even = sticks out a little from the end. =20 I put the compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 = when I turn the engine over. I tried this several times and there is = definitely a couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double = check the location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even = with the bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would = come out. =20 I put two new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - = 2300RPM rough is the best I could get. =20 Some time this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can = see the apex seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20 =20 Joe Hull (getting tired of little surprises in the air). Redmond/Seattle WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C728EB.913D7CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, so it sounds like your EC2 default = (25Deg BTDC=20 assuming static at 35 deg) is about right for best power. =20 Thanks
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, = 2006 11:59=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Lynn's advice on timing is right-on  for full power=20 advance.  24 - 26 is the range I have used. 
 
  I do see a slight improvement in fuel economy at low = manifold=20 pressure when timing is increased to around 35 degrees when the = manifold=20 pressure is down to ~16" Hg, (linear increase between 24 & = 16"=20 Hg.) and the mixture is lean.  The EC2 does this = automatically so no=20 need to adjust in-flight.   Car racers virtually never run = at these=20 conditions.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 25, = 2006 7:54=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Sorry, Tracy,  I should have = made it=20 clearer that I was talking about the crankangle sensor static timing = set not=20 the actually running ignition timing.  But, I believe that Joe = was=20 talking about the same thing.
 
As I recall your default ignition = timing for=20 the EC2 is around 25Deg (assuming the static was set at 35DEG = BTDC).  I=20 am running mine around 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in = your=20 estimation??  If so, what would you recommend.
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 25, = 2006 7:29=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Dead Rotor=20 at 3000ft

Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor = reference=20 timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing.  = Either=20  35 or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at=20 full power for the 13B.
 
Tracy  (having a Merry Christmas) 
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Joe=20 Hull
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, December = 24, 2006=20 12:00 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Dead Rotor=20 at 3000ft

Thanx = Ed. I'll=20 double check but pretty sure I'm at 35. =

 

Have = a very,=20 very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others gift you = with=20 many aviation toys!)

 

Joe

 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent:=20 Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:31 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at = 3000ft

 

Joe, Sorry to hear = about=20 your problem but glad to hear you brought her back safely.  = Does=20 certainly appear you have a bad apex seal.  You might want = to check=20 your ignition timing.  I once mistakenly (of course - who = would to=20 it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to 45 deg rather = than=20 35.  I noticed while flying that If I opened up the = throttle wide=20 open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato = popping.  Well=20 did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the center = electrode=20 ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and cracked on = the other=20 two.  Just lucky they didn't take out the apex seal.  = So you=20 might check that timing just to be=20 certain.

 

"Merry=20 Christmas"?

 

Ed

----- Original = Message=20 -----

From:=20 Joe Hull=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:15=20 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Dead Rotor at = 3000ft

 

The weather = today in the=20 Seattle area was marginal for flying - but a nice hole opened = around=20 my home airport (KAWO) and I was there tinkering with the = plane anyway=20 (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I did 4 touch and goes = just for=20 a wee bit of practice and then departed the pattern toward a = bigger=20 hole that would be legal to climb through VFR. I flew about 30 = miles=20 northwest of the airport out to the edge of the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in = the air.=20 Power setting was about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a = lazy=20 135kts.  I turned around and headed back for Arlington and=20 decided to ramp up the power to ramming speed - errr I mean = cruising=20 speed. In a few minutes I was cruising along at 170kts at = about=20 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - the engine stumbled and = RPM's=20 dropped to 2300RPM.  I immediately throttled back and = switched=20 tanks while turning toward the airport. Altitude was 3200FT = (about=20 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the airport. The engine = was=20 running real rough and wouldn't give me more than 2300RPM. = Even with=20 that little bit of power I ended up entering the 45 to the = pattern at=20 about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty slow at the = airport so=20 I easily made a normal landing and was able to taxi back to = the hanger=20 under power.

 

At the hangar I = double=20 checked everything I could from the cockpit - fuel pressure = good at=20 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM = showed=20 "OK" for the size major areas it monitors. So, I shut it down = and=20 pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop through a number of times = and it=20 seemed that there was a couple places where I should have been = hearing=20 a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I also notice that there is = a nice=20 ding in the prop that is about an inch long - that wasn't = there when I=20 left (remember I'm a pusher).

 

I got the engine = compression gage and proceeded to take the spark plug out of = the front=20 rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't remember there being a = casing=20 around the electrode - and why is that casing sliding? =20 Apparently the casing around the electrode broke somewhere = inside the=20 sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the electrode. = Each half=20 slides freely up and down the electrode and even sticks out a = little=20 from the end.

 

I put the = compression gage=20 on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when I turn the engine = over. I=20 tried this several times and there is definitely a couple of = places=20 where it only goes to 30. So I double check the location of = that ding=20 in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even with the bottom of the = exhaust -=20 right about where an apex seal would come=20 out.

 

I put two new = BR9EQ-14's=20 in both rotors and did a quick run - 2300RPM rough is the best = I could=20 get.

 

Some time this = week I'll=20 go up and yank the exhaust so I can see the apex seals - my = guess is=20 I'm missing at least one. Bummer. =

 

Joe Hull = (getting tired of=20 little surprises in the air).

Redmond/Seattle = WA,=20 Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs

 

--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/

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