X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 1 [X] Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.86] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.4) with ESMTP id 1716175 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:00:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.86; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.250.85]) by bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 26 Dec 2006 08:59:41 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 08:59:41 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.150.205 by BAY115-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:59:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.150.205] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:59:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C728E5.4F4F3000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.50.0034.2000 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:59:34 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Dec 2006 16:59:41.0528 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C3DCD80:01C7290F] Return-Path: lors01@msn.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C728E5.4F4F3000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn's advice on timing is right-on for full power advance. 24 - 26 is = the range I have used.=20 I do see a slight improvement in fuel economy at low manifold pressure = when timing is increased to around 35 degrees when the manifold pressure = is down to ~16" Hg, (linear increase between 24 & 16" Hg.) and the = mixture is lean. The EC2 does this automatically so no need to adjust = in-flight. Car racers virtually never run at these conditions. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Sorry, Tracy, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about = the crankangle sensor static timing set not the actually running = ignition timing. But, I believe that Joe was talking about the same = thing. As I recall your default ignition timing for the EC2 is around 25Deg = (assuming the static was set at 35DEG BTDC). I am running mine around = 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in your estimation?? If so, = what would you recommend. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor reference = timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. Either 35 = or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at full power for the = 13B. Tracy (having a Merry Christmas)=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Thanx Ed. I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.=20 =20 Have a very, very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and = others gift you with many aviation toys!) =20 Joe =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft =20 Joe, Sorry to hear about your problem but glad to hear you brought = her back safely. Does certainly appear you have a bad apex seal. You = might want to check your ignition timing. I once mistakenly (of course = - who would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to 45 deg = rather than 35. I noticed while flying that If I opened up the throttle = wide open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato popping. Well = did not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the center electrode = ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and cracked on the other = two. Just lucky they didn't take out the apex seal. So you might check = that timing just to be certain. =20 "Merry Christmas"? =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Dead Rotor at 3000ft =20 The weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying - = but a nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was there = tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I = did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then departed = the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb through = VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the edge of = the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting was = about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts. I turned around = and headed back for Arlington and decided to ramp up the power to = ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In a few minutes I was = cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - = the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to 2300RPM. I immediately = throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward the airport. = Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the = airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn't give me more = than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering the = 45 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty = slow at the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to = taxi back to the hanger under power.=20 =20 At the hangar I double checked everything I could from the = cockpit - fuel pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at = 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it = monitors. So, I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop = through a number of times and it seemed that there was a couple places = where I should have been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I = also notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch = long - that wasn't there when I left (remember I'm a pusher). =20 I got the engine compression gage and proceeded to take the = spark plug out of the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't = remember there being a casing around the electrode - and why is that = casing sliding? Apparently the casing around the electrode broke = somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the = electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the electrode and even = sticks out a little from the end. =20 I put the compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 = when I turn the engine over. I tried this several times and there is = definitely a couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double = check the location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even = with the bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would = come out. =20 I put two new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - = 2300RPM rough is the best I could get. =20 Some time this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can see = the apex seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20 =20 Joe Hull (getting tired of little surprises in the air). Redmond/Seattle WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C728E5.4F4F3000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn's advice on timing is right-on  for full power=20 advance.  24 - 26 is the range I have used. 
 
  I do see a slight improvement in fuel economy at low = manifold=20 pressure when timing is increased to around 35 degrees when the manifold = pressure is down to ~16" Hg, (linear increase between 24 & 16"=20 Hg.) and the mixture is lean.  The EC2 does this automatically = so no=20 need to adjust in-flight.   Car racers virtually never run at = these=20 conditions.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 = 7:54=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Sorry, Tracy,  I should have = made it clearer=20 that I was talking about the crankangle sensor static timing set not = the=20 actually running ignition timing.  But, I believe that Joe was = talking=20 about the same thing.
 
As I recall your default ignition = timing for the=20 EC2 is around 25Deg (assuming the static was set at 35DEG BTDC).  = I am=20 running mine around 30Deg for take off power- is that too much in your = estimation??  If so, what would you recommend.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 25, = 2006 7:29=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Keep in mind that Ed was talking about the crank sensor = reference=20 timing which has nothing to do with actual ignition timing.  = Either=20  35 or 45 would would be way too much ignition advance at=20 full power for the 13B.
 
Tracy  (having a Merry Christmas) 
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Joe=20 Hull
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, December 24, = 2006 12:00=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Dead Rotor=20 at 3000ft

Thanx = Ed. I'll=20 double check but pretty sure I'm at 35. =

 

Have a = very, very=20 Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others gift you with = many=20 aviation toys!)

 

Joe

 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Saturday, December = 23, 2006=20 8:31 PM
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at = 3000ft

 

Joe, Sorry to hear = about your=20 problem but glad to hear you brought her back safely.  Does = certainly=20 appear you have a bad apex seal.  You might want to check = your=20 ignition timing.  I once mistakenly (of course - who would to = it=20 intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to 45 deg rather than=20 35.  I noticed while flying that If I opened up the throttle = wide=20 open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato popping.  = Well did=20 not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the center electrode = ceramic=20 cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and cracked on the other=20 two.  Just lucky they didn't take out the apex seal.  So = you=20 might check that timing just to be=20 certain.

 

"Merry=20 Christmas"?

 

Ed

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Joe=20 Hull

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:15 = PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Dead Rotor at = 3000ft

 

The weather today = in the=20 Seattle area was marginal for flying - but a nice hole opened = around my=20 home airport (KAWO) and I was there tinkering with the plane = anyway=20 (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I did 4 touch and goes = just for a=20 wee bit of practice and then departed the pattern toward a = bigger hole=20 that would be legal to climb through VFR. I flew about 30 miles=20 northwest of the airport out to the edge of the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in = the air.=20 Power setting was about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy = 135kts.  I turned around and headed back for Arlington and=20 decided to ramp up the power to ramming speed - errr I mean = cruising=20 speed. In a few minutes I was cruising along at 170kts at about = 5500RPM.=20 Then all of a sudden BAM - the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped = to=20 2300RPM.  I immediately throttled back and switched tanks = while=20 turning toward the airport. Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) = and I=20 was maybe 7 miles from the airport. The engine was running real = rough=20 and wouldn't give me more than 2300RPM. Even with that little = bit of=20 power I ended up entering the 45 to the pattern at about 800 = above=20 pattern altitude. It was pretty slow at the airport so I easily = made a=20 normal landing and was able to taxi back to the hanger under = power.=20

 

At the hangar I = double=20 checked everything I could from the cockpit - fuel pressure good = at=20 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM = showed "OK"=20 for the size major areas it monitors. So, I shut it down and = pulled the=20 cowl. I pulled the prop through a number of times and it seemed = that=20 there was a couple places where I should have been hearing a = "pop" in=20 the exhaust but didn't. I also notice that there is a nice ding = in the=20 prop that is about an inch long - that wasn't there when I left=20 (remember I'm a pusher).

 

I got the engine = compression=20 gage and proceeded to take the spark plug out of the front rotor = - top -=20 BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't remember there being a casing around = the=20 electrode - and why is that casing sliding?  Apparently the = casing=20 around the electrode broke somewhere inside the sparkplug and = into two=20 halves long ways down the electrode. Each half slides freely up = and down=20 the electrode and even sticks out a little from the=20 end.

 

I put the = compression gage=20 on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when I turn the engine over. = I tried=20 this several times and there is definitely a couple of places = where it=20 only goes to 30. So I double check the location of that ding in = the prop=20 - hmmm it's exactly even with the bottom of the exhaust - right = about=20 where an apex seal would come out.

 

I put two new = BR9EQ-14's in=20 both rotors and did a quick run - 2300RPM rough is the best I = could=20 get.

 

Some time this = week I'll go=20 up and yank the exhaust so I can see the apex seals - my guess = is I'm=20 missing at least one. Bummer.

 

Joe Hull (getting = tired of=20 little surprises in the air).

Redmond/Seattle = WA,=20 Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs

 

--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/

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