X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.0) with ESMTP id 1491559 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:58:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-098-062.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.98.62]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k9LKvgCO014765 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001501c6f553$909ee160$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuse Ratings for Wiring?? Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:57:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6F532.094F4E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6F532.094F4E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi David, Egad! Just think those computers could be plotting in the garage and = with us none the wiser. Maybe I should disconnect the battery {:>). It = is amazing what the microchip has done to our once simple automobile = engine. No doubt some of those car systems have more computing power = than the Apollo spacecraft. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: hoursaway1@comcast.net=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 4:01 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuse Ratings for Wiring?? Ed; from my perspective working in the auto repair format for 25 years = is, the CB or fuse is at the begining of the circiut, TO the componant, = in order to protect the wire between those two points, i-e short to = grnd. The small-er fuse should be very near the componant only to = protect componant from spikes in the sys. Did you know that starting in = year 2000 the Cadillac Deville, and others, used 24 computers/modules = that all talk to each other even when the car is off (never leave your = key all the way in the ign. in your garage overnight, those computers = will not stop talking all night long, must be female computers,drain = batt.) I told this to my wife multiple times but oh well she is on her = way now. David RV6A Rotary (wings-tail-flaps-ailerons painted and at = airport) -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "Ed Anderson" =20 > One thing I have never really understood regarding fuses (or CB = for that=20 > matter) is - why you would use a fuse/CB with the rating set to = protect the=20 > wire!!! If you have a system operating off a power wire, it is = highly=20 > likely that the wire will flow much more current than the system = requires by=20 > quite a bit. So if you select a fuse or CB rating that protects = the=20 > equipment then automatically it will protect the wire.=20 >=20 > However, if you select the rating to protect the wire, the system = could=20 > easily fry and the fuse or CB might never trigger. Just one of = those things=20 > (wire size) that everybody uses as a guide for selecting the = ratings=20 > (Fuse/CB) and yet, it has never made sense to me (and still does = not) {:>)=20 >=20 > I guess IF you put more system load that used more current than a = wire was=20 > rated for then a fuse sized for the system would not protect the = wire which=20 > could over heat. But, that is simply a bad wiring decision in = selecting too=20 > small a wire in the first place. I guess the rational is better = the system=20 > fry than the wire - but not certain I buy it.=20 >=20 > I don't really lose sleep over this one - but, I do wonder from = time to time=20 > about things we come to accept {:>)=20 >=20 >=20 > Ed=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Ed Anderson"=20 > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 5:47 PM=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Switches !!! was Re: Powering = fuel=20 > injectors=20 >=20 >=20 > > Welcome, Greg.=20 > > < BR>> > Yes, there are arguments pro and con about fuses and CB = - its about the=20 > > only thing I disagreed with Bob Nuckolls about {:>). Probably = influenced=20 > > by my years flying military aircraft - where CB are everywhere = and fuses=20 > > no where {:>)=20 > >=20 > > In any case, glad you are now aware of the "disable" switch = function=20 > > regarding doubling the fuel flow through on pair of injectors = when the=20 > > other is turned off. You can fly easily on one pair - provided = it is=20 > > doing double duty with the fuel flow.=20 > >=20 > > Ed=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >> Thanks for that Ed, I am using the EC2 but I hadn't gone = through the=20 > >> install of it thoroughly yet and wasn't aware of that mode. = I'll make=20 > >> sure that it's done now.=20 > >>=20 > >> I follow what you're saying about breakers instead of fuses and = I have to=20 > >> agree, but following the Bob Nuckolls school of wiring means = that the=20 > >> fuses/breakers should be no more than 6" to a foot from the = power source=20 > >> (battery) and the batteries are behind the rear baggage area = and no where=20 > >> near the panel. The argument for the fuses to be near the = source of=20 > >> electric power is also valid considering the fuses are there to = protect=20 > >> the wiring.=20 > >>=20 > >> Greg=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>> Hi Greg,=20 > >>>=20 > >>> Looks like a good electrical system over all. However, I would = not=20 > >>> feel comfortable with fuses in my critical system power line. = But, I=20 > >>> see that you are routing two power sources to each switch of = your=20 > >>> critical system which means if one fuse blows due to a transit = spike,=20 > >>> the ot her one, hopefully, will not. Again, this is my own = personal bias=20 > >>> against fuses in critical systems - there are arguments to the = contrary=20 > >>> for sure.=20 > >>>=20 > >>> One thing I did notice, is looking at your injector power = switches, I am=20 > >>> not certain if these are meant to be the same as Tracy Crook's = Injector=20 > >>> disable switches. If they are (and they may not be), I do not = see the=20 > >>> connection that automatically grounds the "cold Start" mode in = the EC2=20 > >>> when either injector pair are disabled (turned off).=20 > >>>=20 > >>> This may be a detail just not shown on the drawing - but it is = > >>> crucially important. If the injector power switch does not = have the=20 > >>> "cold start" grounding provision, then if you ever switch off = one of the=20 > >>> injector pairs, you r fuel flow will drop approx by 1/2 half. = The reason=20 > >>> is that (with Tracy's recommended switch set up) when you turn = off one=20 > >>> pair of injectors , that automatically grounds the "cold = start" pin=20 > >>> which causes the EC2 to double the duration of the PW (Pulse = Width)=20 > >>> signal to the remaining injector pair. This in turn doubles = the amount=20 > >>> of fuel from the active pair of injectors. If the "cold start" = is not=20 > >>> activated (by automatic grounding of the cold start pin = through a DPDT=20 > >>> switch) when an injector pair is switched off, then the PW = signal does=20 > >>> NOT double and the fuel flow through the one injector pair = will only be=20 > >>> 1/2 of what the engine needs.=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> Ed=20 > >>>=20 > >>> Ed Anderson=20 > >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=20 > >>> Matthews, NC=20 > >>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 > >>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=20 > >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=20 > >>>=20 > >>> ----- Original Message -----=20 > >>> From: "Greg@itmack"=20 > >>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 > >>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 3:33 AM=20 > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Powering fuel injectors=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> I'm trying to keep the number of switched down as well, I = attached a=20 > >>>> pdf=20 > >>>> with my schematic which is a work in progress for your = review.=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> I have noted that a lot of builders reduce a lot of this = complexity by=20 > >>>&g t; just=20 > >>>> hanging everything off 1 or 2 fuses which is fine until a = fuse blows=20 > >>>> and=20 > >>>> then everything stops.=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> Greg RV8 down under=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>>I am using Z-19 from the Aeroelectric Connection as a guide = for wiring=20 > >>>>> my plane. I would like to power the injectors from the = battery buss.=20 > >>>>> Looking at Z-19, do I need to install a complete switch and = diode=20 > >>>>> system=20 > >>>>> for the injectors like is done for the fuel pump and ECU, or = can I tie=20 > >>>>> on to the fuel pump OR the ECU system after either the = switch (add a=20 > >>>>> separate diode) or after one of the diodes?=20 > >>>>> There will be the two DPDT s witches to disable the primary = and=20 > >>>>> secondary=20 > >>>>> injectors after this connection.=20 > >>>>> My panel is becoming somewhat switch festooned and I would = like to=20 > >>>>> keep=20 > >>>>> more switches to a minimum.=20 > >>>>> How have you guys accomplished this?=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Thanks.=20 > >>>>> Bill B=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> --=20 > >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > >>>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> --=20 > >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > >>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> --=20 > >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > >>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> --=20 > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 &g t; Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6F532.094F4E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi David,
 
Egad!  Just think those computers could be = plotting=20 in the garage and with us none the wiser.  Maybe I should = disconnect the=20 battery {:>).  It is amazing what the microchip has done to our = once=20 simple automobile engine.  No doubt some of those car systems have = more=20 computing power than the Apollo spacecraft.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 hoursaway1@comcast.net =
Sent: Saturday, October 21, = 2006 4:01=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuse = Ratings for=20 Wiring??

Ed; from my perspective working in the auto repair format for 25 = years=20 is, the CB or fuse is at the begining of the circiut, TO the = componant, in order to protect the wire between those two points, i-e = short to=20 grnd.  The small-er fuse should be very near the componant only = to=20 protect componant from spikes in the sys. Did you know that = starting in=20 year 2000 the Cadillac Deville, and others, used 24 computers/modules = that all=20 talk to each other even when the car is off  (never leave your = key all=20 the way in the ign. in your garage overnight, those computers will not = stop=20 talking all night long, must be female computers,drain batt.) I told = this to=20 my wife multiple times but oh well she is on her way now.  David = RV6A=20 Rotary (wings-tail-flaps-ailerons painted and at airport)
 
--------------=20 Original message --------------
From: "Ed Anderson"=20 <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>

> One thing I have = never really=20 understood regarding fuses (or CB for that
> matter) is - why = you=20 would use a fuse/CB with the rating set to protect the
> = wire!!! If=20 you have a system operating off a power wire, it is highly
> = likely=20 that the wire will flow much more current than the system requires = by=20
> quite a bit. So if you select a fuse or CB rating that = protects the=20
> equipment then automatically it will protect the wire. =
>=20
> However, if you select the rating to protect the wire, the = system=20 could
> easily fry and the fuse or CB might never trigger. = Just one=20 of those things
> (wire size) that everybody uses as a guide = for=20 selecting the ratings
> (Fuse/CB) and yet, it has never made = sense to=20 me (and still does not) {:>)
>
> I guess IF you put = more=20 system load that used more current than a wire was
> rated = for then a=20 fuse sized for the system would not protect the wire which
> = could=20 over heat. But, that is simply a bad wiring decision in selecting = too=20
> small a wire in the first place. I guess the rational is = better the=20 system
> fry than the wire - but not certain I buy it. =
>=20
> I don't really lose sleep over this one - but, I do wonder = from=20 time to time
> about things we come to accept {:>) =
>=20
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
> = -----=20 Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Anderson"=20
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 = 5:47 PM=20
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Switches !!! was Re: = Powering=20 fuel
> injectors
>
>
> > Welcome, = Greg.=20
> > < BR>> > Yes, there are arguments pro and = con=20 about fuses and CB - its about the
> > only thing I = disagreed with=20 Bob Nuckolls about {:>). Probably influenced
> > by my = years=20 flying military aircraft - where CB are everywhere and fuses =
> >=20 no where {:>)
> >
> > In any case, glad you = are now=20 aware of the "disable" switch function
> > regarding = doubling the=20 fuel flow through on pair of injectors when the
> > other = is=20 turned off. You can fly easily on one pair - provided it is
> = >=20 doing double duty with the fuel flow.
> >
> > Ed =
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for that Ed, I = am using=20 the EC2 but I hadn't gone through the
> >> install of = it=20 thoroughly yet and wasn't aware of that mode. I'll make
> = >>=20 sure that it's done now.
> >>
> >> I = follow what=20 you're saying about breakers instead of fuses and I have to
> = >> agree, but following the Bob Nuckolls school of wiring = means that=20 the
> >> fuses/breakers should be no more than 6" to a = foot=20 from the power source
> >> (battery) and the batteries = are=20 behind the rear baggage area and no where
> >> near the = panel.=20 The argument for the fuses to be near the source of
> = >>=20 electric power is also valid considering the fuses are there to = protect=20
> >> the wiring.
> >>
> >> = Greg=20
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Greg, =
>=20 >>>
> >>> Looks like a good electrical = system over=20 all. However, I would not
> >>> feel comfortable = with fuses=20 in my critical system power line. But, I
> >>> see = that you=20 are routing two power sources to each switch of your
> = >>>=20 critical system which means if one fuse blows due to a transit = spike,=20
> >>> the ot her one, hopefully, will not. Again, = this is my=20 own personal bias
> >>> against fuses in critical = systems -=20 there are arguments to the contrary
> >>> for sure. =
>=20 >>>
> >>> One thing I did notice, is = looking at=20 your injector power switches, I am
> >>> not certain = if=20 these are meant to be the same as Tracy Crook's Injector
>=20 >>> disable switches. If they are (and they may not be), I = do not=20 see the
> >>> connection that automatically grounds = the=20 "cold Start" mode in the EC2
> >>> when either = injector pair=20 are disabled (turned off).
> >>>
> = >>> This=20 may be a detail just not shown on the drawing - but it is
>=20 >>> crucially important. If the injector power switch does = not have=20 the
> >>> "cold start" grounding provision, then if = you ever=20 switch off one of the
> >>> injector pairs, you r = fuel flow=20 will drop approx by 1/2 half. The reason
> >>> is = that (with=20 Tracy's recommended switch set up) when you turn off one
>=20 >>> pair of injectors , that automatically grounds the = "cold start"=20 pin
> >>> which causes the EC2 to double the = duration of the=20 PW (Pulse Width)
> >>> signal to the remaining = injector=20 pair. This in turn doubles the amount
> >>> of fuel = from the=20 active pair of injectors. If the "cold start" is not
> = >>>=20 activated (by automatic grounding of the cold start pin through a = DPDT=20
> >>> switch) when an injector pair is switched off, = then=20 the PW signal does
> >>> NOT double and the fuel = flow=20 through the one injector pair will only be
> >>> 1/2 = of what=20 the engine needs.
> >>>
> >>> =
>=20 >>> Ed
> >>>
> >>> Ed = Anderson=20
> >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> = >>>=20 Matthews, NC
> >>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com =
>=20 >>> = http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=20
> >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> = >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- =
>=20 >>> From: "Greg@itmack"
> = >>> To:=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft"
>=20 >>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 3:33 AM
> = >>>=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Powering fuel injectors
> = >>>=20
> >>>
> >>>> I'm trying to keep = the=20 number of switched down as well, I attached a
> = >>>> pdf=20
> >>>> with my schematic which is a work in = progress for=20 your review.
> >>>>
> >>>> I = have=20 noted that a lot of builders reduce a lot of this complexity by =
>=20 >>>&g t; just
> >>>> hanging = everything off=20 1 or 2 fuses which is fine until a fuse blows
> = >>>> and=20
> >>>> then everything stops.
> = >>>>=20
> >>>> Greg RV8 down under
> = >>>>=20
> >>>>
> >>>>
>=20 >>>>>I am using Z-19 from the Aeroelectric Connection = as a=20 guide for wiring
> >>>>> my plane. I would = like to=20 power the injectors from the battery buss.
> = >>>>>=20 Looking at Z-19, do I need to install a complete switch and diode =
>=20 >>>>> system
> >>>>> for the = injectors=20 like is done for the fuel pump and ECU, or can I tie
>=20 >>>>> on to the fuel pump OR the ECU system after = either the=20 switch (add a
> >>>>> separate diode) or after = one of=20 the diodes?
> >>>>> There will be the two DPDT = s=20 witches to disable the primary and
> >>>>> = secondary=20
> >>>>> injectors after this connection. =
>=20 >>>>> My panel is becoming somewhat switch festooned = and I=20 would like to
> >>>>> keep
>=20 >>>>> more switches to a minimum.
>=20 >>>>> How have you guys accomplished this?
>=20 >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks.
>=20 >>>>> Bill B
> >>>>>
>=20 >>>>>
> >>>>> --
>=20 >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>>>> Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
> = >>>>>=20
> >>>>>
> >>>>
>=20 >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
> >>>
> >>>
> = >>>> --=20
> >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ =
>=20 >>>> Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
> = >>>>=20
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =
>=20 >>> --
> >>> Homepage: = http://www.flyrotary.com/=20
> >>> Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
> >>> =
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> = >>=20 --
> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = >>=20 Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ =
>=20 >>
> >
> >
> >
> > -- =
>=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and = UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
> > =
>=20
>
>
> --
&g t; Homepage:=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20
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