X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc3-s32.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.232] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.6) with ESMTP id 1470063 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:55:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.232; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.250.74]) by bay0-omc3-s32.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:52:35 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:52:32 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.129.2 by BAY115-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:52:28 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.129.2] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / EC2 Wiring Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:52:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006E_01C6F12A.4D95C820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0029.3000 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:52:21 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2006 17:52:32.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[DADEBEF0:01C6F14B] Return-Path: lors01@msn.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C6F12A.4D95C820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for bringing that up Bill, meant to do that yesterday but forgot. = I did not have the capacitor in my 2nd gen 13B installation (I don't = think the 2nd gen car had one) but this is a good thing to have for = several reasons. I do have one installed on my Renesis engine. I am = changing all the installation guides to include this part. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / EC2 Wiring Thanks Tracy. One more question: I'm using the wiring harness from = the Renesis. The harness for the coils has the power wires going to pin = C tied together and grounded through a capacitor which is marked = 250/0.47. I plan to use the same set-up and presume the capacitor is = used to catch spikes as the coils are turned on and off. Do you = recommend using this or not? Thanks again. Will wait to hear from you. Bill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / EC2 Wiring Keep in mind that there are entire books written on the subject of = aircraft wiring so this will not be an exhaustive answer and there are = always situations which I won't think of until something goes wrong = (like Al's situation with the remote EM2 display and the EC2 PCM = wiring). The only shielded wire in my system is the alternator cable to the = battery (mainly for radio noise suppression) so extensive use of = shielded wires is usually not required. I did use a twisted pair for = the crank angle sensor on the Renesis. Here is the general guideline on the EC2 wire routing outlined in = the EC2 installation guide that I should go back and expand on, clarify, = etc.=20 Route the low level control lines (PCM, crank sensor, coil control = lines, etc) separately from any high current switching lines (coil = power, coil ground, injector power & drive lines, etc).=20 That's it. As stated above, there will always be possible = exceptions like Al's situation but 99% of the time this general rule = will work fine. Tracy (back to getting the 20B setup to run for the Rotary fly-in) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:35 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Coil Wiring Tracy, I have both my harneses (EC &EM-2) soldered up and ready to be = routed. I would like to do this once and correctly...:>) I have two firewall penetrations, one on the pilot side going to = the injectors with the injector control wires bundled together. I had planned to bring the injector power wires thru this same = penetration bundled together, but not bundled with the control wires. If I = need to do any twisted pairs, exactly which pairs should be twisted = together?? How far apart should the two bundles be? The other firewall penetration is on the copilot side. I = currently have the balance of the EC-2 wires bundled together and going thru this penetration. I also have all the EM-2 wires bundled and going = thru this same penetration. This includes therrocouple and temperature = sensor wires. Sounds like I need to separate some wires. If so which = wires need to be separated and how? Do I need more penetrations? = Exactly which wires need to be twisted together and or shielded?? How far = apart should the bundles be and if they are together (penetrations) how = far can they be allowed to be close? Thanks, Bill Bradburry Mark; Tracy; I'd like to explore this further. Mark S wrote: After reading Bob Darrah's post last week where he noticed a big improvement after separating the leads to his coils I gave it a = try on my 20B. It made a big difference, but was most noticeable in the = lower rpm range. I was only able to separate the wires down near the = coils, and then only by a small amount, but it made a substantial = improvement. My question for Tracy is, can I leave the grounds and +14v wires = bundled together and only separate the trigger leads, or do I need to = separate all the wires? Also, if I were to use 3 individual shielded wires = and ground the shields, could I then bundle the trigger leads together = with the rest of the coil wires? On a side note, after separating the coil leads, it took a much = leaner mixture to get it to run smooth. Before, the best it would idle = was about 1200rpm, now it will idle nicely at 900 rpm, not that I want = to do that, but it shows that the improvement isn't all in my head. Clarify for me which leads you separated; the control leads from = pins 3, 20, and 21 (C-pins) from each other? I find that below about = 1400-1500 rpm the engine begins the occasional miss, and gets progressively rougher as rpm decreases. I've been thinking that it seemed more ignition related then mixture related. I have the C-pin leads and the B-pins ground bundled together from = the box to the firewall penetration (a few feet). These bundles are = separate for each set of coils (lead, trail). From the firewall to coils = (a few more feet) the power lead (pin-D) joins the bundle. The A-pins are = all grounded at the coil mount. Tracy wrote: 1. How long is the wiring harness between EC2 and coils? About 6 ft for the trailing and 10 ft for the leading. 2. How is the power ground to the coils (A terminals) routed? (hopefully not in the same harness, if so, there is your problem). 3. Same question as 2. on the power terminals. Does this say that the power lead (D-pins) should not be bundled = with the C or B pin leads? If so, is this just as true if the lead and trailing bundles are separate. 4. I would be surprised if this turned out to be the problem but = if coupling between the control lines themselves (C pins) turns out = to be the problem, use either twisted pairs or shielded wires to drive = the B & C lines to each coil. I would lean toward twisted pairs. I ran a common B-pin ground for each set; bundled with the C-pin = leads but not twisted. Twisted pairs would mean adding more wires - or = would twisting 3 control leads with one ground to as well? 5. Are there any other lines routed along with the coil harness (injector drives, etc)? The coil bundles run with the injector drive bundles from the near = the firewall to the top of the engine, maybe 4 ft or so; and run with = other wires for a foot or so. One objective is to minimize firewall penetrations, another is to maintain separation between sets of injectors and sets of coils for true redundancy, and another is to separate noisy wires from quiet wires; so further separating isn't = a simple matter. Al -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C6F12A.4D95C820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for bringing that up Bill, meant to do that yesterday but=20 forgot. 
 
   I did not have the capacitor in my 2nd gen 13B=20 installation  (I don't think the 2nd gen car had one) but this is a = good=20 thing to have for several reasons.  I do have one = installed on my=20 Renesis engine.  I am changing all the installation guides to = include=20 this part.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bradburry
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 = 1:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / = EC2=20 Wiring

Thanks Tracy.  One more question:  = I'm using=20 the wiring harness from the Renesis.  The harness for the coils = has the=20 power wires going to pin C tied together and grounded through a = capacitor=20 which is marked 250/0.47.  I plan to use the same set-up and = presume the=20 capacitor is used to catch spikes as the coils are turned on and = off.  Do=20 you recommend using this or not?
 
Thanks again.  Will wait to hear from=20 you.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, October 16, = 2006 10:06=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil = / EC2=20 Wiring

Keep in mind that there are entire books written on the subject = of=20 aircraft wiring so this will not be an exhaustive answer and there = are=20 always situations which I won't think of until something goes wrong = (like=20 Al's situation with the remote EM2 display and the EC2 PCM = wiring).
 
  The only shielded wire in my system is the alternator = cable to=20 the battery (mainly for radio noise suppression) so extensive use of = shielded wires is usually not required.  I did use a twisted = pair for=20 the crank angle sensor on the Renesis.
 
Here is the general guideline on the EC2 wire routing = outlined in=20 the EC2 installation guide that I should go back and expand on, = clarify,=20 etc. 
 
 Route the low level control lines = (PCM, crank=20 sensor, coil control lines, etc) separately from any high current = switching=20 lines (coil power, coil ground, injector power & drive lines,=20 etc). 
 
  That's it.  As stated above, there will always be = possible=20 exceptions like Al's situation but 99% of the time this general rule = will=20 work fine.
 
Tracy  (back to getting the 20B setup to run for the = Rotary=20 fly-in)
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Bill Bradburry =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, October 15, = 2006 8:35=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Coil=20 Wiring

Tracy,
I have both my harneses (EC &EM-2) = soldered=20 up and ready to be routed.
I would like to do this once and=20 correctly...:>)

I have two firewall penetrations, one on = the=20 pilot side going to the
injectors with the injector control = wires=20 bundled together.  I had
planned to bring the injector = power wires=20 thru this same penetration
bundled together, but not bundled = with the=20 control wires.  If I need to
do any twisted pairs, exactly = which=20 pairs should be twisted together??
How far apart should the two = bundles=20 be?

The other firewall penetration is on the copilot = side.  I=20 currently have
the balance of the EC-2 wires bundled together = and going=20 thru this
penetration.  I also have all the EM-2 wires = bundled and=20 going thru this
same penetration.  This includes = therrocouple and=20 temperature sensor
wires.  Sounds like I need to separate = some=20 wires.  If so which wires
need to be separated and =20 how?  Do I need more penetrations?  Exactly
which = wires need=20 to be twisted together and or shielded??  How far = apart
should the=20 bundles be and if they are together (penetrations) how far
can = they be=20 allowed to be close?

Thanks,
Bill=20 Bradburry




Mark; Tracy;



I'd like = to=20 explore this further.  Mark S wrote:

After reading Bob = Darrah's post last week where he noticed a big
improvement = after=20 separating the leads to his coils I gave it a try on
my = 20B.  It=20 made a big difference, but was most noticeable in the lower
rpm = range.  I was only able to separate the wires down near the=20 coils,
and then only by a small amount, but it made a = substantial=20 improvement.
My question for Tracy is, can I leave the grounds = and +14v=20 wires bundled
together and only separate the trigger leads, or = do I=20 need to separate
all the wires?  Also, if I were to use 3=20 individual shielded wires and
ground the shields, could I then = bundle=20 the trigger leads together with
the rest of the coil=20 wires?



On a side note, after separating the coil = leads, it=20 took a much leaner
mixture to get it to run smooth.  = Before, the=20 best it would idle was
about 1200rpm, now it will idle nicely = at 900=20 rpm, not that I want to do
that, but it shows that the = improvement=20 isn't all in my head.



Clarify for me which leads = you=20 separated; the control leads from pins 3,
20, and 21 (C-pins) = from each=20 other?  I find that below about 1400-1500
rpm the engine = begins=20 the occasional miss, and gets progressively
rougher as rpm=20 decreases.  I've been thinking that it seemed = more
ignition=20 related then mixture related.



I have the C-pin = leads and=20 the B-pins ground bundled together from the
box to the firewall = penetration (a few feet). These bundles are separate
for each = set of=20 coils (lead, trail).  From the firewall to coils (a = few
more feet)=20 the power lead (pin-D) joins the bundle. The A-pins are = all
grounded at=20 the coil mount.



Tracy wrote:

1.  How = long is=20 the wiring harness between EC2 and coils?

About 6 ft for = the=20 trailing and 10 ft for the leading.



2.  How is = the=20 power ground to the coils (A terminals) routed?
(hopefully not = in the=20 same harness, if so, there is your problem).

3.  Same = question=20 as 2. on the power terminals.

Does this say that the power = lead=20 (D-pins) should not be bundled with
the C or B pin leads?  = If so,=20 is this just as true if the lead and
trailing bundles are=20 separate.



4. I would be surprised if this turned = out to be=20 the problem but if
coupling between the control lines = themselves (C=20 pins) turns out to be
the problem,  use either twisted = pairs or=20 shielded wires to drive the B
& C lines to each coil.  = I would=20 lean toward twisted pairs.

I ran a common B-pin ground for = each=20 set; bundled with the C-pin leads
but not twisted.  = Twisted pairs=20 would mean adding more wires - or would
twisting 3 control = leads with=20 one ground to as well?



5.  Are there any other = lines=20 routed along with the coil harness
(injector drives, = etc)?

The=20 coil bundles run with the injector drive bundles from the near=20 the
firewall to the top of the engine, maybe 4 ft or so; and = run with=20 other
wires for a foot or so.  One objective is to = minimize=20 firewall
penetrations, another is to maintain separation = between sets=20 of
injectors and sets of coils for true redundancy, and another = is=20 to
separate noisy wires from quiet wires; so further separating = isn't=20 a
simple=20 = matter.



Al






--
Homepage: = ;=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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