X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.37.197.101] (HELO o1.xlccorp.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.6) with SMTP id 1470010 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:31:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.37.197.101; envelope-from=bbradburry@allvantage.com Received: (qmail 8488 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2006 17:31:34 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.235.24.164.dial1.orlando1.level3.net (HELO h2m6k0) (4.235.24.164) by o1.xlccorp.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2006 17:31:28 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c6f149$4944f380$a418eb04@h2m6k0> Reply-To: "Bill Bradburry" From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / EC2 Wiring Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:34:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F127.C126C580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F127.C126C580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Tracy. One more question: I'm using the wiring harness from the = Renesis. The harness for the coils has the power wires going to pin C = tied together and grounded through a capacitor which is marked 250/0.47. = I plan to use the same set-up and presume the capacitor is used to = catch spikes as the coils are turned on and off. Do you recommend using = this or not? Thanks again. Will wait to hear from you. Bill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / EC2 Wiring Keep in mind that there are entire books written on the subject of = aircraft wiring so this will not be an exhaustive answer and there are = always situations which I won't think of until something goes wrong = (like Al's situation with the remote EM2 display and the EC2 PCM = wiring). The only shielded wire in my system is the alternator cable to the = battery (mainly for radio noise suppression) so extensive use of = shielded wires is usually not required. I did use a twisted pair for = the crank angle sensor on the Renesis. Here is the general guideline on the EC2 wire routing outlined in the = EC2 installation guide that I should go back and expand on, clarify, = etc.=20 Route the low level control lines (PCM, crank sensor, coil control = lines, etc) separately from any high current switching lines (coil = power, coil ground, injector power & drive lines, etc).=20 That's it. As stated above, there will always be possible = exceptions like Al's situation but 99% of the time this general rule = will work fine. Tracy (back to getting the 20B setup to run for the Rotary fly-in) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:35 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Coil Wiring Tracy, I have both my harneses (EC &EM-2) soldered up and ready to be = routed. I would like to do this once and correctly...:>) I have two firewall penetrations, one on the pilot side going to the injectors with the injector control wires bundled together. I had planned to bring the injector power wires thru this same penetration bundled together, but not bundled with the control wires. If I need = to do any twisted pairs, exactly which pairs should be twisted = together?? How far apart should the two bundles be? The other firewall penetration is on the copilot side. I currently = have the balance of the EC-2 wires bundled together and going thru this penetration. I also have all the EM-2 wires bundled and going thru = this same penetration. This includes therrocouple and temperature sensor wires. Sounds like I need to separate some wires. If so which = wires need to be separated and how? Do I need more penetrations? = Exactly which wires need to be twisted together and or shielded?? How far = apart should the bundles be and if they are together (penetrations) how = far can they be allowed to be close? Thanks, Bill Bradburry Mark; Tracy; I'd like to explore this further. Mark S wrote: After reading Bob Darrah's post last week where he noticed a big improvement after separating the leads to his coils I gave it a try = on my 20B. It made a big difference, but was most noticeable in the = lower rpm range. I was only able to separate the wires down near the = coils, and then only by a small amount, but it made a substantial = improvement. My question for Tracy is, can I leave the grounds and +14v wires = bundled together and only separate the trigger leads, or do I need to = separate all the wires? Also, if I were to use 3 individual shielded wires = and ground the shields, could I then bundle the trigger leads together = with the rest of the coil wires? On a side note, after separating the coil leads, it took a much = leaner mixture to get it to run smooth. Before, the best it would idle was about 1200rpm, now it will idle nicely at 900 rpm, not that I want = to do that, but it shows that the improvement isn't all in my head. Clarify for me which leads you separated; the control leads from = pins 3, 20, and 21 (C-pins) from each other? I find that below about = 1400-1500 rpm the engine begins the occasional miss, and gets progressively rougher as rpm decreases. I've been thinking that it seemed more ignition related then mixture related. I have the C-pin leads and the B-pins ground bundled together from = the box to the firewall penetration (a few feet). These bundles are = separate for each set of coils (lead, trail). From the firewall to coils (a = few more feet) the power lead (pin-D) joins the bundle. The A-pins are = all grounded at the coil mount. Tracy wrote: 1. How long is the wiring harness between EC2 and coils? About 6 ft for the trailing and 10 ft for the leading. 2. How is the power ground to the coils (A terminals) routed? (hopefully not in the same harness, if so, there is your problem). 3. Same question as 2. on the power terminals. Does this say that the power lead (D-pins) should not be bundled = with the C or B pin leads? If so, is this just as true if the lead and trailing bundles are separate. 4. I would be surprised if this turned out to be the problem but if coupling between the control lines themselves (C pins) turns out to = be the problem, use either twisted pairs or shielded wires to drive = the B & C lines to each coil. I would lean toward twisted pairs. I ran a common B-pin ground for each set; bundled with the C-pin = leads but not twisted. Twisted pairs would mean adding more wires - or = would twisting 3 control leads with one ground to as well? 5. Are there any other lines routed along with the coil harness (injector drives, etc)? The coil bundles run with the injector drive bundles from the near = the firewall to the top of the engine, maybe 4 ft or so; and run with = other wires for a foot or so. One objective is to minimize firewall penetrations, another is to maintain separation between sets of injectors and sets of coils for true redundancy, and another is to separate noisy wires from quiet wires; so further separating isn't a simple matter. Al -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F127.C126C580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Tracy.  One more question:  I'm = using the=20 wiring harness from the Renesis.  The harness for the coils has the = power=20 wires going to pin C tied together and grounded through a capacitor = which is=20 marked 250/0.47.  I plan to use the same set-up and presume the = capacitor=20 is used to catch spikes as the coils are turned on and off.  Do you = recommend using this or not?
 
Thanks again.  Will wait to hear from=20 you.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 = 10:06=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coil / = EC2=20 Wiring

Keep in mind that there are entire books written on the subject = of=20 aircraft wiring so this will not be an exhaustive answer and there are = always=20 situations which I won't think of until something goes wrong (like = Al's=20 situation with the remote EM2 display and the EC2 PCM wiring).
 
  The only shielded wire in my system is the alternator = cable to the=20 battery (mainly for radio noise suppression) so extensive use of = shielded=20 wires is usually not required.  I did use a twisted pair for the = crank=20 angle sensor on the Renesis.
 
Here is the general guideline on the EC2 wire routing = outlined in=20 the EC2 installation guide that I should go back and expand on, = clarify,=20 etc. 
 
 Route the low level control lines = (PCM, crank=20 sensor, coil control lines, etc) separately from any high current = switching=20 lines (coil power, coil ground, injector power & drive lines,=20 etc). 
 
  That's it.  As stated above, there will always be = possible=20 exceptions like Al's situation but 99% of the time this general rule = will work=20 fine.
 
Tracy  (back to getting the 20B setup to run for the Rotary=20 fly-in)
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bradburry
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, October 15, = 2006 8:35=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Coil = Wiring

Tracy,
I have both my harneses (EC &EM-2) = soldered up=20 and ready to be routed.
I would like to do this once and=20 correctly...:>)

I have two firewall penetrations, one on = the pilot=20 side going to the
injectors with the injector control wires = bundled=20 together.  I had
planned to bring the injector power wires = thru this=20 same penetration
bundled together, but not bundled with the = control=20 wires.  If I need to
do any twisted pairs, exactly which = pairs=20 should be twisted together??
How far apart should the two bundles = be?

The other firewall penetration is on the copilot = side.  I=20 currently have
the balance of the EC-2 wires bundled together and = going=20 thru this
penetration.  I also have all the EM-2 wires = bundled and=20 going thru this
same penetration.  This includes = therrocouple and=20 temperature sensor
wires.  Sounds like I need to separate = some=20 wires.  If so which wires
need to be separated and  = how? =20 Do I need more penetrations?  Exactly
which wires need to be = twisted=20 together and or shielded??  How far apart
should the bundles = be and=20 if they are together (penetrations) how far
can they be allowed = to be=20 close?

Thanks,
Bill Bradburry




Mark;=20 Tracy;



I'd like to explore this further.  Mark S = wrote:

After reading Bob Darrah's post last week where he = noticed a=20 big
improvement after separating the leads to his coils I gave it = a try=20 on
my 20B.  It made a big difference, but was most = noticeable in the=20 lower
rpm range.  I was only able to separate the wires down = near=20 the coils,
and then only by a small amount, but it made a = substantial=20 improvement.
My question for Tracy is, can I leave the grounds = and +14v=20 wires bundled
together and only separate the trigger leads, or do = I need=20 to separate
all the wires?  Also, if I were to use 3 = individual=20 shielded wires and
ground the shields, could I then bundle the = trigger=20 leads together with
the rest of the coil wires?



On = a side=20 note, after separating the coil leads, it took a much = leaner
mixture to=20 get it to run smooth.  Before, the best it would idle = was
about=20 1200rpm, now it will idle nicely at 900 rpm, not that I want to = do
that,=20 but it shows that the improvement isn't all in my=20 head.



Clarify for me which leads you separated; the = control=20 leads from pins 3,
20, and 21 (C-pins) from each other?  I = find that=20 below about 1400-1500
rpm the engine begins the occasional miss, = and gets=20 progressively
rougher as rpm decreases.  I've been thinking = that it=20 seemed more
ignition related then mixture = related.



I have=20 the C-pin leads and the B-pins ground bundled together from = the
box to=20 the firewall penetration (a few feet). These bundles are = separate
for=20 each set of coils (lead, trail).  From the firewall to coils (a = few
more feet) the power lead (pin-D) joins the bundle. The = A-pins are=20 all
grounded at the coil mount.



Tracy=20 wrote:

1.  How long is the wiring harness between EC2 = and=20 coils?

About 6 ft for the trailing and 10 ft for the=20 leading.



2.  How is the power ground to the = coils (A=20 terminals) routed?
(hopefully not in the same harness, if so, = there is=20 your problem).

3.  Same question as 2. on the power=20 terminals.

Does this say that the power lead (D-pins) should = not be=20 bundled with
the C or B pin leads?  If so, is this just as = true if=20 the lead and
trailing bundles are separate.



4. I = would be=20 surprised if this turned out to be the problem but if
coupling = between=20 the control lines themselves (C pins) turns out to be
the = problem, =20 use either twisted pairs or shielded wires to drive the B
& C = lines=20 to each coil.  I would lean toward twisted pairs.

I ran = a common=20 B-pin ground for each set; bundled with the C-pin leads
but not=20 twisted.  Twisted pairs would mean adding more wires - or=20 would
twisting 3 control leads with one ground to as=20 well?



5.  Are there any other lines routed along = with=20 the coil harness
(injector drives, etc)?

The coil bundles = run with=20 the injector drive bundles from the near the
firewall to the top = of the=20 engine, maybe 4 ft or so; and run with other
wires for a foot or=20 so.  One objective is to minimize firewall
penetrations, = another is=20 to maintain separation between sets of
injectors and sets of = coils for=20 true redundancy, and another is to
separate noisy wires from = quiet wires;=20 so further separating isn't a
simple=20 = matter.



Al






--
Homepage: = ;=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F127.C126C580--