X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with SMTP id 1125380 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 May 2006 19:43:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABCHHHRFAQGQYG2 for (sender ); Tue, 23 May 2006 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LQ4G2373; Tue, 23 May 2006 16:41:28 PDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:40:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Message-ID: <20060523.164037.3608.1.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_396e.1b0c.3347 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,9-10,18-28,32-33,35-36,40-49,51,53-64,66,68,70-90,92,94,96-97,99,101-105,107,109-121,123-128,130-135,137-153,155-158,160-164,166-168,170,172-176,178-179,181-185,187-188,190-197,199-201,203,205,207-208,210-212,214-216,218,220-223,225-226,228-229,231-232,234,236,238,240,242-247,249-283,284-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 5:2:4107240655 X-MAIL-INFO: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 50cd55e9c5d041903d31d419646dc57d056531cdfd5105e00174749020599015 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkA++Tuk9peMP2UsnleZzfZoZNT38VtmTwQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_396e.1b0c.3347 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Way to take action on those coils Tracy. When I first skimmed your email I thought you were still selling the old ones and just adding air blast. So glad to hear otherwise. Hope you've done some exaggerated temperature testing on the new ones. Just in case. The Japanese are just excellent at this type of testing. They will design what they call an external noise array, then find out if the product is affected by it. External noise array is just fancy way of testing all the items that are uncontrollable. Like temperature extremes, moisture, vibration. Sounds complicated and expensive, but really need not be. Like temperature extreme could be tested just by putting some insulation around a few coils. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Tue, 23 May 2006 18:32:59 -0400 "Tracy Crook" writes: The lost coil count is now up to 3. The ones that went bad were the Delco # D581 LS1 Truck coils. I have not had any problems with them (still using 3 of them) since installing a cooling plenum over the coils fed by a blast tube but I no longer carry or recommend them. The D580 version for the LS1 Corvette engine has no history of failure that I know of and that is what I now carry and recommend. GM came out with a "new style" coil for the truck engine (Delco # D585) that has a heat sink on the igniter side of the coil. They don't say it is a fix for heat related failures of the D581 but there is little doubt in my mind that it is. Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Tracy, lost two LS1 coils believed due to over heating. He now has air flow to his 4 LS` coils (also sitting on top of the engine). I suspect the Mazda coils may take more heat than the LS1 coils, I have not lost one to heat (yet) - but that is just speculation on my part. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:30 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? > Heat soak of the coils is hard to believe. In the 3rd gen turbo cars the > coils sit on top of the engine between the engine and the intake manifold, > and they get mighty hot and hardly ever stop working, in traffic at +100F, > with ac on, stop and go.....? > Marc > > ---- Kelly Troyer wrote: >> And the people said "Amen" !! >> -- >> Kelly Troyer >> Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from "Tracy Crook" >> : -------------- >> >> >> Right-O on the difficulty of long distance diagnosis. >> >> John did tell me that the threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg MAP. >> Since the engine quickly went down hill even at lower throttle settings >> and he thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of testing, I >> suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other than the >> 'splutter' at 38". We just don't know what they are. The coils being >> bad is a long shot since it would mean that two of them died at once, not >> likely but possible. >> >> Sermon follows: >> >> Guys, Learn to be very sensitive to your engine. Know every nuance of >> its character. If you don't know what the air drifting out of the inlets >> after shutdown smells like, you aren't paying enough attention. >> >> Tracy >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Anderson >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:45 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? >> >> >> John, Not being there makes it hard to make an assessment. Anytime I >> have >> had an engine spitting and popping it either mean the air/fuel mixture >> was >> too lean or I had a ignition problem (mainly timing). I have no >> experience >> with any coils other than the stock Mazda but additional cooling >> certainly >> could not hurt. It really sounds like to me your engine is increasing >> rpm >> until its getting into a region where the air/fuel mixture may be too >> lean. >> Normally a too lean engine will pop and spit but not certain if your >> sputter >> is same as my sputter {:>). Also you did not mention what boost levels >> you >> were running when this was happening. >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Any time my engine acts abnormal, its grounded until I figure out the >> problem >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Slade" >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Another case of heat-soaked coils? >> >> >> > Yesterday I took a friend for a ride and the engine purred sweetly for >> > the >> > entire trip. Looking back, the only thing different was that there >> > didn't >> > seem to be an rpm drop when I disabled leading or trailing coils during >> > the runup. >> > >> > Today all was normal during runup (except perhaps the coil disable >> > causing >> > no rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 before I couldn't hold it any >> > more >> > on the brakes. Take-off and climb were normal. On the downwind I was >> > showing 5800 rpm so I decide to coursen the prop. When I did I felt a >> > splutter. I reduced throttle and the engine ran normally. I increased >> > throttle. More splutter. I reduced throttle and it ran normally at >> > 4600. >> > Any more throttle and all I got was reduced power & popping and >> > spitting. >> > I circled the field trying mixture adjustments, checking fuel pressure >> > on >> > both pumps, coil & injector defeat and swapping to B computer. Nothing >> > seemed to make any difference, so I landed. >> > >> > The only change since the previous flight was that I'd replaced the >> > plugs >> > with a clean set - not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I let >> > the >> > engine cool down a bit, then installed new ones. Later in the day the >> > engine ran fine during taxi and again reached 5300 on runup. >> > Acceleration >> > seemed normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a >> > splutter, >> > so I aborted and rolled off the runway. >> > >> > When I added power to taxi clear of the runway the spitting got much >> > worse. So bad, in fact that it seemed to be running on one rotor and >> > there >> > was insufficient thrust to move the plane forward. I tried adjusting >> > mixture and defeating injectors & coils again and the engine eventually >> > stopped. I was able to restart, but had the same symptoms. The rpm was >> > fairly steady at 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could get. The >> > EM2 >> > was flip flopping rpm readings 2300...400...2100..800...every couple of >> > seconds. >> > >> > I called Tracy from right there on the taxiway. As always - he took the >> > call and listened to my unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :) >> > Anyway, >> > his best thought was that it sounded like it might be a coil heat-soak >> > problem. It definitely seems heat related, and my cowl has been running >> > a >> > bit hotter since I installed the new T04 turbo. >> > >> > I pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried turning >> > the >> > prop to feel all six compression strokes. To my untrained arm muscles >> > the >> > compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will report >> > if >> > this corrects the problem. Whether it does or not, I see a separate air >> > duct for the coils in my future. The blow tube I installed may not be >> > providing enough cooling. I once tried installing a temp sensor at the >> > coils, but this sent other EM2 temp readings haywire - induced current >> > from the ignition? - so unfortunately I don't have temp readings on the >> > coils. >> > >> > Anyone have additional thoughts on this? >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > Frustrated in Florida (I could add another F at the beginning to help >> > with >> > the .ing alliteration, but I won't) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_396e.1b0c.3347 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Way to take action on those coils Tracy. When I first skimmed your = email I=20 thought you were still selling the old ones and just adding air blast.= So=20 glad to hear otherwise.
 
Hope you've done some exaggerated temperature testing on the new ones.= Just=20 in case. The Japanese are just excellent at this type of testing. They will= =20 design what they call an external noise array, then find out if the product= is=20 affected by it. External noise array is just fancy way of testing all the = items=20 that are uncontrollable. Like temperature extremes, moisture, vibration. = Sounds=20 complicated and expensive, but really need not be. Like temperature extreme= =20 could be tested just by putting some insulation around a few coils.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by= =20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design=20 info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Tue, 23 May 2006 18:32:59 -0400 "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com> writes:
The lost coil count is now up to 3.  The ones that went bad = were the=20 Delco # D581 LS1 Truck coils.  I have not had any problems with= them=20 (still using 3 of them) since installing a cooling plenum over the=20 coils fed by a blast tube but I no longer carry or recommend=20 them. 
 
 The D580 version for the LS1 Corvette engine has no= =20 history of failure that I know of and that is what I now carry and=20 recommend. 
 
GM came out with a "new style" coil for the truck engine (Delco # = D585)=20 that has a heat sink on the igniter side of the coil.  They don't = say it=20 is a fix for heat related failures of the D581 but there is little doubt = in my=20 mind that it is.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:36= =20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another= case=20 of heat-soaked coils?

Tracy, lost two LS1 coils believed due to over heating.&= nbsp;=20 He now has air flow
to his 4 LS` coils (also sitting on top of the= =20 engine).  I suspect the Mazda
coils may take more heat than = the LS1=20 coils, I have not lost one to heat
(yet)  - but that is just=20 speculation on my part.

Ed
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 <cardmarc@charter.net>
To= :=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case = of=20 heat-soaked coils?


> Heat soak of the coils is hard to=20 believe. In the 3rd gen turbo cars the
> coils sit on top of the= =20 engine between the engine and the intake manifold,
> and they = get=20 mighty hot and hardly ever stop working, in traffic at +100F,
> = with=20 ac on, stop and go.....?
> Marc
>
> ---- Kelly Troyer= =20 <keltro@att.net> wrote:
>>= ; And=20 the people said "Amen" !!
>> --
>> Kelly=20 Troyer
>> Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2
>>
>>
>>
>>
&= gt;>
>>
>>=20 -------------- Original message from "Tracy Crook"
>> <lors01@msn.com>: --------------=20
>>
>>
>> Right-O on the difficulty of long= =20 distance diagnosis.
>>
>> John did tell me that the=20 threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg MAP.
>> Since the = engine=20 quickly went down hill even at lower throttle settings
>> and= he=20 thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of testing,  I= =20
>> suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other = than=20 the
>> 'splutter' at 38".   We just don't know what= they=20 are.  The coils being
>> bad is a long shot since it = would=20 mean that two of them died at once, not
>> likely but=20 possible.
>>
>> Sermon follows:
>>
>&= gt;=20 Guys,  Learn to be very sensitive to your engine.   Know= =20 every nuance of
>> its character.  If you don't know = what the=20 air drifting out of the inlets
>> after shutdown smells=20 like,  you aren't paying enough attention.
>>
>>= =20 Tracy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ed=20 Anderson
>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>> Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:45 AM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another=20 case of heat-soaked coils?
>>
>>
>> John, = Not=20 being there makes it hard to make an assessment.  Anytime I=20
>> have
>> had an engine spitting and popping it = either=20 mean the air/fuel mixture
>> was
>> too lean or I = had a=20 ignition problem (mainly timing).  I have no
>>=20 experience
>> with any coils other than the stock Mazda but=20 additional cooling
>> certainly
>> could not hurt.&= nbsp;=20 It really sounds like to me your engine is increasing
>>=20 rpm
>> until its getting into a region where the air/fuel = mixture=20 may be too
>> lean.
>> Normally a too lean engine = will=20 pop and spit but not certain if your
>> sputter
>> = is=20 same as my sputter {:>).  Also you did not mention what boost = levels=20
>> you
>> were running when this was=20 happening.
>>
>>=20 Ed
>>
>>
>>
>> Any time my engine = acts=20 abnormal, its grounded until I figure out the
>>=20 problem
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "= John=20 Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
= >>=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
>>=20 Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] = Another=20 case of heat-soaked coils?
>>
>>
>> >=20 Yesterday I took a friend for a ride and the engine purred sweetly for= =20
>> > the
>> > entire trip. Looking back, the = only=20 thing different was that there
>> > didn't
>> >= ;=20 seem to be an rpm drop when I disabled leading or trailing coils=20 during
>> > the runup.
>> >
>> > = Today=20 all was normal during runup (except perhaps the coil disable
>&= gt;=20 > causing
>> > no rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 = before=20 I couldn't hold it any
>> > more
>> > on the=20 brakes. Take-off and climb were normal. On the downwind I was
>&= gt;=20 > showing 5800 rpm so I decide to coursen the prop. When I did I = felt=20 a
>> > splutter. I reduced throttle and the engine ran = normally.=20 I increased
>> > throttle. More splutter. I reduced = throttle and=20 it ran normally at
>> > 4600.
>> > Any more=20 throttle and all I got was reduced power & popping and
>>= >=20 spitting.
>> > I circled the field trying mixture = adjustments,=20 checking fuel pressure
>> > on
>> > both pumps= ,=20 coil & injector defeat and swapping to B computer. Nothing
>&= gt;=20 > seemed to make any difference, so I landed.
>>=20 >
>> > The only change since the previous flight was = that I'd=20 replaced the
>> > plugs
>> > with a clean set = - not=20 new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I let
>> >=20 the
>> > engine cool down a bit, then installed new ones. = Later=20 in the day the
>> > engine ran fine during taxi and again=20 reached 5300 on runup.
>> > Acceleration
>> >= =20 seemed normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a
>= >=20 > splutter,
>> > so I aborted and rolled off the=20 runway.
>> >
>> > When I added power to taxi = clear=20 of the runway the spitting got much
>> > worse. So bad, in = fact=20 that it seemed to be running on one rotor and
>> >=20 there
>> > was insufficient thrust to move the plane = forward. I=20 tried adjusting
>> > mixture and defeating injectors & = coils=20 again and the engine eventually
>> > stopped. I was able to= =20 restart, but had the same symptoms. The rpm was
>> > fairly= =20 steady at 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could get. The
>= ;>=20 > EM2
>> > was flip flopping rpm readings=20 2300...400...2100..800...every couple of
>> >=20 seconds.
>> >
>> > I called Tracy from right = there=20 on the taxiway. As always - he took the
>> > call and = listened=20 to my unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :)
>> >=20 Anyway,
>> > his best thought was that it sounded like it = might=20 be a coil heat-soak
>> > problem. It definitely seems heat= =20 related, and my cowl has been running
>> > a
>> &= gt;=20 bit hotter since I installed the new T04 turbo.
>> >
>= ;>=20 > I pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried = turning=20
>> > the
>> > prop to feel all six compression= =20 strokes. To my untrained arm muscles
>> > the
>> = >=20 compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will report=20
>> > if
>> > this corrects the problem. = Whether it=20 does or not, I see a separate air
>> > duct for the coils = in my=20 future. The blow tube I installed may not be
>> > providing= =20 enough cooling. I once tried installing a temp sensor at the
>>= ;=20 > coils, but this sent other EM2 temp readings haywire - induced=20 current
>> > from the ignition? - so unfortunately I don't = have=20 temp readings on the
>> > coils.
>> >
>&= gt;=20 > Anyone have additional thoughts on this?
>> >
>&= gt;=20 > Sincerely,
>> > Frustrated in Florida (I could add = another=20 F at the beginning to help
>> > with
>> > the = .ing=20 alliteration, but I won't)
>> >
>> >
>>= ;=20 >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Homepage:&= nbsp;=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>= ;>=20 > Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.= lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>>=20 >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>= ;>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.= lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>
>=20 --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>= ;=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.= lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>=20



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
= Archive=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.= lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in= =20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, = Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
----__JNP_000_396e.1b0c.3347--