X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.85] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1125330 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 May 2006 18:37:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.85; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 May 2006 15:33:08 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.147.248 by BAY115-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 23 May 2006 22:33:04 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.147.248] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:32:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01C67E97.51141570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0026.0800 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:32:59 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2006 22:33:08.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDD42D30:01C67EB8] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C67E97.51141570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The lost coil count is now up to 3. The ones that went bad were the = Delco # D581 LS1 Truck coils. I have not had any problems with them = (still using 3 of them) since installing a cooling plenum over the coils = fed by a blast tube but I no longer carry or recommend them.=20 The D580 version for the LS1 Corvette engine has no history of failure = that I know of and that is what I now carry and recommend.=20 GM came out with a "new style" coil for the truck engine (Delco # D585) = that has a heat sink on the igniter side of the coil. They don't say it = is a fix for heat related failures of the D581 but there is little doubt = in my mind that it is. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Tracy, lost two LS1 coils believed due to over heating. He now has = air flow=20 to his 4 LS` coils (also sitting on top of the engine). I suspect the = Mazda=20 coils may take more heat than the LS1 coils, I have not lost one to = heat=20 (yet) - but that is just speculation on my part. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:30 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? > Heat soak of the coils is hard to believe. In the 3rd gen turbo cars = the=20 > coils sit on top of the engine between the engine and the intake = manifold,=20 > and they get mighty hot and hardly ever stop working, in traffic at = +100F,=20 > with ac on, stop and go.....? > Marc > > ---- Kelly Troyer > wrote: >> And the people said "Amen" !! >> -- >> Kelly Troyer >> Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from "Tracy Crook"=20 >> >: --------------=20 >> >> >> Right-O on the difficulty of long distance diagnosis. >> >> John did tell me that the threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg = MAP.=20 >> Since the engine quickly went down hill even at lower throttle = settings=20 >> and he thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of = testing, I=20 >> suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other than the=20 >> 'splutter' at 38". We just don't know what they are. The coils = being=20 >> bad is a long shot since it would mean that two of them died at = once, not=20 >> likely but possible. >> >> Sermon follows: >> >> Guys, Learn to be very sensitive to your engine. Know every = nuance of=20 >> its character. If you don't know what the air drifting out of the = inlets=20 >> after shutdown smells like, you aren't paying enough attention. >> >> Tracy >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: Ed Anderson >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:45 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? >> >> >> John, Not being there makes it hard to make an assessment. Anytime = I=20 >> have >> had an engine spitting and popping it either mean the air/fuel = mixture=20 >> was >> too lean or I had a ignition problem (mainly timing). I have no=20 >> experience >> with any coils other than the stock Mazda but additional cooling=20 >> certainly >> could not hurt. It really sounds like to me your engine is = increasing=20 >> rpm >> until its getting into a region where the air/fuel mixture may be = too=20 >> lean. >> Normally a too lean engine will pop and spit but not certain if = your=20 >> sputter >> is same as my sputter {:>). Also you did not mention what boost = levels=20 >> you >> were running when this was happening. >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Any time my engine acts abnormal, its grounded until I figure out = the >> problem >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "John Slade" = > >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = > >> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Another case of heat-soaked coils? >> >> >> > Yesterday I took a friend for a ride and the engine purred = sweetly for=20 >> > the >> > entire trip. Looking back, the only thing different was that = there=20 >> > didn't >> > seem to be an rpm drop when I disabled leading or trailing coils = during >> > the runup. >> > >> > Today all was normal during runup (except perhaps the coil = disable=20 >> > causing >> > no rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 before I couldn't hold it = any=20 >> > more >> > on the brakes. Take-off and climb were normal. On the downwind I = was >> > showing 5800 rpm so I decide to coursen the prop. When I did I = felt a >> > splutter. I reduced throttle and the engine ran normally. I = increased >> > throttle. More splutter. I reduced throttle and it ran normally = at=20 >> > 4600. >> > Any more throttle and all I got was reduced power & popping and=20 >> > spitting. >> > I circled the field trying mixture adjustments, checking fuel = pressure=20 >> > on >> > both pumps, coil & injector defeat and swapping to B computer. = Nothing >> > seemed to make any difference, so I landed. >> > >> > The only change since the previous flight was that I'd replaced = the=20 >> > plugs >> > with a clean set - not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I = let=20 >> > the >> > engine cool down a bit, then installed new ones. Later in the day = the >> > engine ran fine during taxi and again reached 5300 on runup.=20 >> > Acceleration >> > seemed normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a=20 >> > splutter, >> > so I aborted and rolled off the runway. >> > >> > When I added power to taxi clear of the runway the spitting got = much >> > worse. So bad, in fact that it seemed to be running on one rotor = and=20 >> > there >> > was insufficient thrust to move the plane forward. I tried = adjusting >> > mixture and defeating injectors & coils again and the engine = eventually >> > stopped. I was able to restart, but had the same symptoms. The = rpm was >> > fairly steady at 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could = get. The=20 >> > EM2 >> > was flip flopping rpm readings 2300...400...2100..800...every = couple of >> > seconds. >> > >> > I called Tracy from right there on the taxiway. As always - he = took the >> > call and listened to my unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :)=20 >> > Anyway, >> > his best thought was that it sounded like it might be a coil = heat-soak >> > problem. It definitely seems heat related, and my cowl has been = running=20 >> > a >> > bit hotter since I installed the new T04 turbo. >> > >> > I pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried = turning=20 >> > the >> > prop to feel all six compression strokes. To my untrained arm = muscles=20 >> > the >> > compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will = report=20 >> > if >> > this corrects the problem. Whether it does or not, I see a = separate air >> > duct for the coils in my future. The blow tube I installed may = not be >> > providing enough cooling. I once tried installing a temp sensor = at the >> > coils, but this sent other EM2 temp readings haywire - induced = current >> > from the ignition? - so unfortunately I don't have temp readings = on the >> > coils. >> > >> > Anyone have additional thoughts on this? >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > Frustrated in Florida (I could add another F at the beginning to = help=20 >> > with >> > the .ing alliteration, but I won't) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C67E97.51141570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
The lost coil count is now up to 3.  The ones that went bad = were the=20 Delco # D581 LS1 Truck coils.  I have not had any problems = with them=20 (still using 3 of them) since installing a cooling plenum over the=20 coils fed by a blast tube but I no longer carry or recommend=20 them. 
 
 The D580 version for the LS1 Corvette engine has no = history=20 of failure that I know of and that is what I now carry and=20 recommend. 
 
GM came out with a "new style" coil for the truck engine (Delco # = D585)=20 that has a heat sink on the igniter side of the coil.  They don't = say it is=20 a fix for heat related failures of the D581 but there is little doubt in = my mind=20 that it is.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 = 1:36 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another case of=20 heat-soaked coils?

Tracy, lost two LS1 coils believed due to over = heating. =20 He now has air flow
to his 4 LS` coils (also sitting on top of the = engine).  I suspect the Mazda
coils may take more heat than = the LS1=20 coils, I have not lost one to heat
(yet)  - but that is just=20 speculation on my part.

Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 <cardmarc@charter.net>
To: = "Rotary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case = of=20 heat-soaked coils?


> Heat soak of the coils is hard to = believe.=20 In the 3rd gen turbo cars the
> coils sit on top of the engine = between=20 the engine and the intake manifold,
> and they get mighty hot = and=20 hardly ever stop working, in traffic at +100F,
> with ac on, = stop and=20 go.....?
> Marc
>
> ---- Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> = wrote:
>> And the=20 people said "Amen" !!
>> --
>> Kelly = Troyer
>> Dyke=20 = Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= ;>
>>
>>=20 -------------- Original message from "Tracy Crook"
>> <lors01@msn.com>: --------------=20
>>
>>
>> Right-O on the difficulty of long = distance diagnosis.
>>
>> John did tell me that the=20 threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg MAP.
>> Since the = engine=20 quickly went down hill even at lower throttle settings
>> = and he=20 thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of testing,  = I=20
>> suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other = than the=20
>> 'splutter' at 38".   We just don't know what = they=20 are.  The coils being
>> bad is a long shot since it = would mean=20 that two of them died at once, not
>> likely but=20 possible.
>>
>> Sermon = follows:
>>
>>=20 Guys,  Learn to be very sensitive to your engine.   = Know every=20 nuance of
>> its character.  If you don't know what the = air=20 drifting out of the inlets
>> after shutdown smells = like,  you=20 aren't paying enough attention.
>>
>> = Tracy
>>=20 ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ed = Anderson
>> To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:45 = AM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked=20 coils?
>>
>>
>> John, Not being there makes = it hard=20 to make an assessment.  Anytime I
>> have
>> = had an=20 engine spitting and popping it either mean the air/fuel mixture =
>>=20 was
>> too lean or I had a ignition problem (mainly = timing).  I=20 have no
>> experience
>> with any coils other than = the=20 stock Mazda but additional cooling
>> certainly
>> = could=20 not hurt.  It really sounds like to me your engine is increasing=20
>> rpm
>> until its getting into a region where the = air/fuel mixture may be too
>> lean.
>> Normally a = too lean=20 engine will pop and spit but not certain if your
>>=20 sputter
>> is same as my sputter {:>).  Also you did = not=20 mention what boost levels
>> you
>> were running = when this=20 was happening.
>>
>>=20 Ed
>>
>>
>>
>> Any time my engine = acts=20 abnormal, its grounded until I figure out the
>> = problem
>>=20 ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
&g= t;>=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>>=20 Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] = Another=20 case of heat-soaked coils?
>>
>>
>> > = Yesterday=20 I took a friend for a ride and the engine purred sweetly for =
>> >=20 the
>> > entire trip. Looking back, the only thing = different was=20 that there
>> > didn't
>> > seem to be an rpm = drop=20 when I disabled leading or trailing coils during
>> > the=20 runup.
>> >
>> > Today all was normal during = runup=20 (except perhaps the coil disable
>> > causing
>> = > no=20 rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 before I couldn't hold it any=20
>> > more
>> > on the brakes. Take-off and = climb were=20 normal. On the downwind I was
>> > showing 5800 rpm so I = decide to=20 coursen the prop. When I did I felt a
>> > splutter. I = reduced=20 throttle and the engine ran normally. I increased
>> > = throttle.=20 More splutter. I reduced throttle and it ran normally at
>> = >=20 4600.
>> > Any more throttle and all I got was reduced = power &=20 popping and
>> > spitting.
>> > I circled the = field=20 trying mixture adjustments, checking fuel pressure
>> >=20 on
>> > both pumps, coil & injector defeat and = swapping to B=20 computer. Nothing
>> > seemed to make any difference, so I = landed.
>> >
>> > The only change since the = previous=20 flight was that I'd replaced the
>> > plugs
>> = > with=20 a clean set - not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I let =
>>=20 > the
>> > engine cool down a bit, then installed new = ones.=20 Later in the day the
>> > engine ran fine during taxi and = again=20 reached 5300 on runup.
>> > Acceleration
>> > = seemed=20 normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a
>> = >=20 splutter,
>> > so I aborted and rolled off the = runway.
>>=20 >
>> > When I added power to taxi clear of the runway = the=20 spitting got much
>> > worse. So bad, in fact that it = seemed to be=20 running on one rotor and
>> > there
>> > was=20 insufficient thrust to move the plane forward. I tried = adjusting
>>=20 > mixture and defeating injectors & coils again and the engine=20 eventually
>> > stopped. I was able to restart, but had = the same=20 symptoms. The rpm was
>> > fairly steady at 1100 or so, = but this=20 was the max rpm I could get. The
>> > EM2
>> = > was=20 flip flopping rpm readings 2300...400...2100..800...every couple=20 of
>> > seconds.
>> >
>> > I = called Tracy=20 from right there on the taxiway. As always - he took the
>> = > call=20 and listened to my unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :) =
>> >=20 Anyway,
>> > his best thought was that it sounded like it = might be=20 a coil heat-soak
>> > problem. It definitely seems heat = related,=20 and my cowl has been running
>> > a
>> > bit = hotter=20 since I installed the new T04 turbo.
>> >
>> > = I=20 pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried turning=20
>> > the
>> > prop to feel all six = compression=20 strokes. To my untrained arm muscles
>> > the
>> = >=20 compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will report=20
>> > if
>> > this corrects the problem. = Whether it=20 does or not, I see a separate air
>> > duct for the coils = in my=20 future. The blow tube I installed may not be
>> > = providing enough=20 cooling. I once tried installing a temp sensor at the
>> > = coils,=20 but this sent other EM2 temp readings haywire - induced = current
>>=20 > from the ignition? - so unfortunately I don't have temp readings = on=20 the
>> > coils.
>> >
>> > Anyone = have=20 additional thoughts on this?
>> >
>> >=20 Sincerely,
>> > Frustrated in Florida (I could add another = F at=20 the beginning to help
>> > with
>> > the .ing = alliteration, but I won't)
>> >
>> = >
>>=20 >
>> >
>> > --
>> > = Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&= gt;=20 > Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>>=20 >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&= gt;=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>
>=20 --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = Archive=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>=20



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C67E97.51141570--