X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c5) with ESMTP id 771483 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:38:14 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j9HNbR1v006879 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000d01c5d373$c0c98820$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:37:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D352.397EAFB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D352.397EAFB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Herb what do you expect from an engineer?{:>) If I had a decent = spell checker it would correct my words to what I meant. So angles to = angels or angels to angles . Me and my spell checker will try to do = better. Ed=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Herb Sanders=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Ed, Now you are going to get an argument started on how many angles it = takes to make an angel. J Herb -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Gee, Richard, I'll bet you wouldn't spend time arguing about how many = angles can fit on the head of a pin either {:>) I agree it does not matter in the sense the engine produces what the = engine produces and does it very well, thank you. But, it is = interesting to see the topic come up repeatedly. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Sohn=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:58 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Who cares?=20 weight vs hp and BSFC and to some extend, cost, is what counts. I = remember the bureaucrats work on the RO80 and the Spider. There was no = factual basis for their explanation than. So why wasting our energy on = it now. The real problem is that the rotary is a better solution! Richard Sohn N-2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Displacement - Again? Been there, done that {:>). If you are going to compare the power = production of 13B rotary engine with a normal reciprocating engine, = then the accepted standard for a power cycle (for a four stroke) is = 720Deg crankshaft degrees of rotation. 720 degrees of a reciprocating = engine has all cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 cylinder engine.=20 Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes from simplistic sum of the = two 40 CID chambers per rotor. The 2.6 liters takes a bit more = explaining. Where I believe the controversy comes in is that 720 degrees of a = rotary leaves two faces of the 13B yet unfired. For all six faces to = fire it takes 1080 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Each rotor face = rotates 120 rotor degrees for a complete cycle- since the e shaft is = geared 3:1 then 120 deg rotor rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft = rotation. Or another way to look at it is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a = complete rotor revolution) =3D 3*360 =3D 1080 deg of e shaft rotation. =20 Now you can argue that the rotary has not finished its combustion = cycle (all chambers firing) until all six faces have fire (1080 deg) - = however, the accepted standard for a complete cycle of a reciprocating 4 = stroke is 720 degs.=20 So IF you are interested in comparing oranges and oranges, then = its generally accepted you compare only 720 deg of the rotary's rotation = to equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke reciprocating engine. IF you do accept that - then that means 4 rotor faces have gone = through their cycle in 720 deg of e shaft rotation. So at approx 40 CID = per face we have 4 x 40 =3D 160 CID for the 720 deg cycle. And that = turns out to be 2.62 liters of displacement. Its really no different than adding up the total displacement of = all the cylinders in a reciprocating engine which do happen to complete = a power stroke in that standard 720 deg. I think the fact that two = faces or (80 CID of displacement) have not yet fire with the rotary is = what bothers folks in this comparison.=20 But if you are going to compare the power of the two different = designs of engine you have to pick one or the other as the standard of = comparison. And keep the parameters the same for both engines. For = example: If you believe the cycle of the rotary is not complete until all = six faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D 240 CID in the 1080 degree = rotary cycle. We could insist that the reciprocating engine be compared to the = 1080 deg rotation of the rotary, but then you would have to increase the = effective displacement of the reciprocating engine to include an = additional 1/2 of its displacement since it will have gone through = another 360 deg of rotation to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary = cycle of 1080deg. That way you again have oranges and oranges.=20 But, in that case both we and the recip folks could boast about = even more HP than we do now {:>) Since I am mainly interested in comparing a rotary with the = reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to the 720 deg = standard for the comparison.=20 Not taking any sides , but someone asked where the 2.6 liter = figure came from and I hope I have answered that. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bob White" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flyrotary_Web_Archive Re: Banishment > Hi Dave, >=20 > OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 revolution of the = rotors. So > each rotor has had one intake event. Each face has a calculated > displacement of about 650 cc. Two X 650 cc =3D 1.3L. If you = can explain > why it's 2.6L, maybe I can send Paul an apology. Or are you = just > trying to get my goat? :) >=20 > I'm not trying to create a big discussion on the displacement of = the > rotary, I just want to understand where that 2.6L per revolution = number > is comming from. I haven't been able to see it. I think Paul = gets it > from comparing to a piston engine, and I agree that the 13B = compares > closest to a 2.6L 4 cycle 4 cylinder engine. >=20 > Bob W. >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700 > David Leonard wrote: >=20 >> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you will always be welcome = here. >> However, you are wrong and 'he' is right about the displacement = of the 13B. >> It is 2.6L or 159.6 cubic inches to be more exact. >> That is the volume of intake on one revolution of the e-shaft. >> But I think you knew that, you were just trying to get his = goat. ;-) >>=20 >> -- >> Dave Leonard >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html >>=20 >> On 10/16/05, Monty Roberts wrote: >> > >> > The doctrine of immaculate ingestion. Whereby molecules of = air and fuel >> > magically migrate into a very small, very perfect = engine,unsullied by the >> > mere laws of physics, thereby creating the salvation of the = world through >> > massive power levels. >> > In the protestant tradition of placing the individual at the = front of the >> > line rather than at the bottom of the church hierarchy, I = will henceforth >> > place all replies at the TOP of each post. >> > Monty >> > Which doctrine was that Monty? >> > >> > Bob W. >> > >> > >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > http://www.bob-white.com > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) > Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D352.397EAFB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Herb what do you expect from an = engineer?{:>)=20  If I had a decent spell checker it would correct my = words to=20  what I meant.  So angles to angels or angels to angles = .  Me and=20 my spell checker will try to do better.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Herb=20 Sanders
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 = 7:26=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Displacement -=20 Again?

Ed, Now you = are going=20 to get an argument started on how many angles it takes to make an = angel.=20 J=20 Herb

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 = 10:14=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Displacement - Again?

 

Gee, Richard, I'll bet = you=20 wouldn't spend time arguing about how many angles can fit on the head = of a pin=20 either {:>)

 

I agree it does not = matter in the=20 sense the engine produces what the engine produces and does it very = well,=20 thank you.  But, it is interesting to see the topic come up=20 repeatedly.

 

Ed = A

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Richard = Sohn=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Monday,=20 October 17, 2005 12:58 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again?

 

Who cares?=20

weight vs hp and BSFC = and to=20 some extend, cost, is what counts. I remember the bureaucrats = work on=20 the RO80 and the Spider. There was no factual basis for their = explanation=20 than. So why wasting our energy on it now.

The real problem is = that the=20 rotary is a better solution!

 

Richard=20 Sohn
N-2071U

 

 

 

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Ed=20 Anderson

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:38 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Displacement - Again?

 

Been there, done = that=20 {:>).  If you are going to compare the power = production=20 of  13B rotary engine with a normal reciprocating = engine,=20 then the accepted standard for a  power cycle (for a four = stroke) is=20 720Deg crankshaft degrees of rotation.  720 degrees of  = a=20 reciprocating engine has all cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 = cylinder=20 engine. 

 

Clearly the 80 CID = or 1.3=20 Liters comes from simplistic sum of the two 40 CID chambers = per=20 rotor.  The 2.6 liters takes a bit more=20 explaining.

 

 Where I = believe the=20 controversy comes in is that 720 degrees of a rotary leaves two = faces of=20 the 13B yet unfired.  For all six faces to fire =  it=20 takes 1080 degrees of crankshaft rotation.  Each rotor face = rotates=20 120 rotor degrees for a complete cycle- since the e shaft is = geared 3:1=20 then 120 deg rotor  rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft=20 rotation. Or another way to look at it is 360 deg of rotor = rotation (=20 a complete rotor revolution) =3D 3*360 =3D 1080 deg of e shaft = rotation. =20

 

Now you can argue = that the=20 rotary has not finished its combustion cycle (all chambers firing) = until=20 all six faces have fire (1080 deg) - however, the accepted = standard=20 for a complete cycle of a reciprocating 4 stroke is 720 degs.=20

 

So IF you are = interested in=20 comparing oranges and oranges, then its generally = accepted you=20 compare only 720 deg of the rotary's rotation to equal the 720 deg = of a=20 normal 4 stroke reciprocating engine.

 

IF you = do accept=20 that - then that means 4 rotor faces have gone through their = cycle in=20 720 deg of e shaft rotation.  So at approx 40 CID per face we = have 4=20 x 40 =3D 160 CID for the 720 deg cycle. And that turns out to be = 2.62 liters=20 of displacement.

 

  Its really no = different=20 than adding up the total displacement of all the cylinders in = a=20 reciprocating engine which do happen to complete a power stroke in = that=20 standard 720 deg.  I think the fact that two faces or (80 CID = of=20 displacement) have not yet fire with the rotary is what bothers = folks in=20 this comparison. 

 

But if you are going = to=20 compare the power of the two different designs of engine you have = to pick=20 one or the other as the standard of comparison.  And keep the = parameters the same for both engines.  For=20 example:

 

If  you believe = the cycle=20 of the rotary is not complete until all six faces have fired then = you have=20 6 x 40 =3D 240 CID in the 1080 degree rotary = cycle.

 

We could insist that = the=20 reciprocating engine be compared to the 1080 deg rotation of the = rotary,=20 but then you would have to increase the effective displacement of = the=20 reciprocating engine to include an additional 1/2 of its = displacement=20 since it will have gone through another 360 deg of rotation to = match (720=20 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary cycle of 1080deg. That way you = again have=20 oranges and oranges. 

 

 But, in that = case both=20 we and the recip folks could boast about even more HP than we do = now=20 {:>)

 

Since I am mainly = interested=20 in comparing a rotary with the reciprocating engines production of = power,=20 I adhere to the 720 deg standard for the=20 comparison. 

 

Not taking any sides = , but someone asked where the 2.6 liter figure came from and = I hope I=20 have answered that. 

 

Ed = A

 

 

 

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: "Bob White"=20 <bob@bob-white.com>

To: "Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Sent: Sunday, = October 16, 2005=20 9:21 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 flyrotary_Web_Archive Re: Banishment

 

> Hi = Dave,
>
>=20 OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 revolution of the rotors. = So
> each rotor has had one intake event.  Each face = has a=20 calculated
> displacement of about 650 cc.  Two X 650 = cc =3D=20 1.3L.  If you can explain
> why it's 2.6L, maybe I can = send=20 Paul an apology.  Or are you just
> trying to get my = goat?=20 :)
>
> I'm not trying to create a big discussion on = the=20 displacement of the
> rotary, I just want to understand = where that=20 2.6L per revolution number
> is comming from.  I = haven't been=20 able to see it.  I think Paul gets it
> from comparing = to a=20 piston engine, and I agree that the 13B compares
> closest = to a 2.6L=20 4 cycle 4 cylinder engine.
>
> Bob W.
> =
>=20
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700
> David Leonard=20 <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:
>=20
>> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you will always = be=20 welcome here.
>> However, you are wrong and 'he' is right = about=20 the displacement of the 13B.
>> It is 2.6L or 159.6 cubic = inches=20 to be more exact.
>>  That is the volume of intake = on one=20 revolution of the e-shaft.
>>  But I think you knew = that,=20 you were just trying to get his goat. ;-)
>>
>> = --
>> Dave Leonard
>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
>>=20 http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html=
>> = http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html
>> =
>>  On=20 10/16/05, Monty Roberts <montyr2157@alltel.net> = wrote:
>>=20 >
>> > The doctrine of immaculate ingestion. = Whereby=20 molecules of air and fuel
>> > magically migrate into = a very=20 small, very perfect engine,unsullied by the
>> > mere = laws of=20 physics, thereby creating the salvation of the world = through
>>=20 > massive power levels.
>> >  In the = protestant=20 tradition of placing the individual at the front of = the
>> >=20 line rather than at the bottom of the church hierarchy, I will=20 henceforth
>> > place all replies at the TOP of each=20 post.
>> >  Monty
>> >   = Which=20 doctrine was that Monty?
>> >
>> > Bob=20 W.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
> =
> --
> http://www.bob-white.com
> N93BD - = Rotary Powered=20 BD-4 (real soon)
> Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
>
> = --
>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/> = =

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