X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [216.52.245.18] (HELO ispwest-email1.mdeinc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c5) with ESMTP id 770712 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:52:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.52.245.18; envelope-from=wschertz@ispwest.com Received: from 7n7z201 (4Cust26.VR1.CHI6.broadband.uu.net [63.13.186.26]) by ispwest-email1.mdeinc.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.420.1) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 05:51:57 -0700 X-Modus-ReverseDNS: OK X-Modus-BlackList: 63.13.186.26=OK;wschertz@ispwest.com=OK X-Modus-RBL: 63.13.186.26=OK X-Modus-Trusted: 63.13.186.26=NO Message-ID: <000d01c5d319$8d6189b0$0400000a@7n7z201> From: "William" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:51:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D2EF.A37A11B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D2EF.A37A11B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's take the case of sizing a K&N air filter. Their formula uses the = displacement of the engine and the rpm to determine the size of the = required filter. For that purpose do we use the 2.6 liter or 1.3 liter = value? Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Gee, Richard, I'll bet you wouldn't spend time arguing about how many = angles can fit on the head of a pin either {:>) I agree it does not matter in the sense the engine produces what the = engine produces and does it very well, thank you. But, it is = interesting to see the topic come up repeatedly. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Sohn=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:58 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Who cares?=20 weight vs hp and BSFC and to some extend, cost, is what counts. I = remember the bureaucrats work on the RO80 and the Spider. There was no = factual basis for their explanation than. So why wasting our energy on = it now. The real problem is that the rotary is a better solution! Richard Sohn N-2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Displacement - Again? Been there, done that {:>). If you are going to compare the power = production of 13B rotary engine with a normal reciprocating engine, = then the accepted standard for a power cycle (for a four stroke) is = 720Deg crankshaft degrees of rotation. 720 degrees of a reciprocating = engine has all cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 cylinder engine.=20 Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes from simplistic sum of the = two 40 CID chambers per rotor. The 2.6 liters takes a bit more = explaining. Where I believe the controversy comes in is that 720 degrees of a = rotary leaves two faces of the 13B yet unfired. For all six faces to = fire it takes 1080 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Each rotor face = rotates 120 rotor degrees for a complete cycle- since the e shaft is = geared 3:1 then 120 deg rotor rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft = rotation. Or another way to look at it is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a = complete rotor revolution) =3D 3*360 =3D 1080 deg of e shaft rotation. =20 Now you can argue that the rotary has not finished its combustion = cycle (all chambers firing) until all six faces have fire (1080 deg) - = however, the accepted standard for a complete cycle of a reciprocating 4 = stroke is 720 degs.=20 So IF you are interested in comparing oranges and oranges, then = its generally accepted you compare only 720 deg of the rotary's rotation = to equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke reciprocating engine. IF you do accept that - then that means 4 rotor faces have gone = through their cycle in 720 deg of e shaft rotation. So at approx 40 CID = per face we have 4 x 40 =3D 160 CID for the 720 deg cycle. And that = turns out to be 2.62 liters of displacement. Its really no different than adding up the total displacement of = all the cylinders in a reciprocating engine which do happen to complete = a power stroke in that standard 720 deg. I think the fact that two = faces or (80 CID of displacement) have not yet fire with the rotary is = what bothers folks in this comparison.=20 But if you are going to compare the power of the two different = designs of engine you have to pick one or the other as the standard of = comparison. And keep the parameters the same for both engines. For = example: If you believe the cycle of the rotary is not complete until all = six faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D 240 CID in the 1080 degree = rotary cycle. We could insist that the reciprocating engine be compared to the = 1080 deg rotation of the rotary, but then you would have to increase the = effective displacement of the reciprocating engine to include an = additional 1/2 of its displacement since it will have gone through = another 360 deg of rotation to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary = cycle of 1080deg. That way you again have oranges and oranges.=20 But, in that case both we and the recip folks could boast about = even more HP than we do now {:>) Since I am mainly interested in comparing a rotary with the = reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to the 720 deg = standard for the comparison.=20 Not taking any sides , but someone asked where the 2.6 liter = figure came from and I hope I have answered that. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bob White" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flyrotary_Web_Archive Re: Banishment > Hi Dave, >=20 > OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 revolution of the = rotors. So > each rotor has had one intake event. Each face has a calculated > displacement of about 650 cc. Two X 650 cc =3D 1.3L. If you = can explain > why it's 2.6L, maybe I can send Paul an apology. Or are you = just > trying to get my goat? :) >=20 > I'm not trying to create a big discussion on the displacement of = the > rotary, I just want to understand where that 2.6L per revolution = number > is comming from. I haven't been able to see it. I think Paul = gets it > from comparing to a piston engine, and I agree that the 13B = compares > closest to a 2.6L 4 cycle 4 cylinder engine. >=20 > Bob W. >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700 > David Leonard wrote: >=20 >> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you will always be welcome = here. >> However, you are wrong and 'he' is right about the displacement = of the 13B. >> It is 2.6L or 159.6 cubic inches to be more exact. >> That is the volume of intake on one revolution of the e-shaft. >> But I think you knew that, you were just trying to get his = goat. ;-) >>=20 >> -- >> Dave Leonard >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html >>=20 >> On 10/16/05, Monty Roberts wrote: >> > >> > The doctrine of immaculate ingestion. Whereby molecules of = air and fuel >> > magically migrate into a very small, very perfect = engine,unsullied by the >> > mere laws of physics, thereby creating the salvation of the = world through >> > massive power levels. >> > In the protestant tradition of placing the individual at the = front of the >> > line rather than at the bottom of the church hierarchy, I = will henceforth >> > place all replies at the TOP of each post. >> > Monty >> > Which doctrine was that Monty? >> > >> > Bob W. >> > >> > >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > http://www.bob-white.com > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) > Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D2EF.A37A11B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's take the case of sizing a K&N = air filter.=20 Their formula uses the displacement of the engine and the rpm to = determine the=20 size of the required filter. For that purpose do we use the 2.6 liter or = 1.3=20 liter value?
 
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 = 10:13=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Displacement -=20 Again?

Gee, Richard, I'll bet you wouldn't spend time = arguing=20 about how many angles can fit on the head of a pin either = {:>)
 
I agree it does not matter in the sense the = engine=20 produces what the engine produces and does it very well, thank = you.  But,=20 it is interesting to see the topic come up repeatedly.
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Richard Sohn=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, October 17, = 2005 12:58=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Displacement -=20 Again?

Who cares?
weight vs hp and BSFC and to some = extend, cost,=20 is what counts. I remember the bureaucrats work on the RO80 and = the=20 Spider. There was no factual basis for their explanation than. So = why=20 wasting our energy on it now.
The real problem is that the rotary = is a better=20 solution!
 
Richard = Sohn
N-2071U
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, October 16, = 2005 7:38=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Displacement -=20 Again?

Been there, done that {:>).  If = you are=20 going to compare the power production = of  13B rotary=20 engine with a normal reciprocating engine, then the accepted = standard for=20 a  power cycle (for a four stroke) is 720Deg crankshaft = degrees of=20 rotation.  720 degrees of  a reciprocating engine has = all=20 cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 cylinder = engine. 
 
Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes=20 from simplistic sum of the two 40 CID chambers per = rotor.  The=20 2.6 liters takes a bit more explaining.
 
 Where I believe the controversy = comes in=20 is that 720 degrees of a rotary leaves two faces of = the 13B yet=20 unfired.  For all six faces to fire  it takes 1080 = degrees of=20 crankshaft rotation.  Each rotor face rotates 120 rotor = degrees for a=20 complete cycle- since the e shaft is geared 3:1 then 120 deg = rotor =20 rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft rotation. Or another = way to look=20 at it is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a complete rotor revolution) = =3D 3*360=20 =3D 1080 deg of e shaft rotation. 
 
Now you can argue that the rotary has not = finished=20 its combustion cycle (all chambers firing) until all six faces = have fire=20 (1080 deg) - however, the accepted standard for a complete = cycle of a=20 reciprocating 4 stroke is 720 degs.
 
So IF you are interested in comparing = oranges and=20 oranges, then its generally accepted you compare only 720 = deg of=20 the rotary's rotation to equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke=20 reciprocating engine.
 
IF you do accept = that - then=20 that means 4 rotor faces have gone through their cycle in 720 = deg of=20 e shaft rotation.  So at approx 40 CID per face we have 4 x = 40 =3D 160=20 CID for the 720 deg cycle. And that turns out to be 2.62 liters of = displacement.
 
  Its really no different than adding = up the=20 total displacement of all the cylinders in a reciprocating = engine=20 which do happen to complete a power stroke in that standard 720 = deg. =20 I think the fact that two faces or (80 CID of displacement) have = not yet=20 fire with the rotary is what bothers folks in this=20 comparison. 
 
But if you are going to compare the power = of the two=20 different designs of engine you have to pick one or the other as = the=20 standard of comparison.  And keep the parameters the same for = both=20 engines.  For example:
 
If  you believe the cycle of the = rotary is not=20 complete until all six faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D = 240 CID in=20 the 1080 degree rotary cycle.
 
We could insist that the reciprocating = engine be=20 compared to the 1080 deg rotation of the rotary, but then you = would have=20 to increase the effective displacement of the reciprocating engine = to=20 include an additional 1/2 of its displacement since it will have = gone=20 through another 360 deg of rotation to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) = the rotary=20 cycle of 1080deg. That way you again have oranges and=20 oranges. 
 
 But, in that case both we and the = recip folks=20 could boast about even more HP than we do now {:>)
 
Since I am mainly interested in comparing = a rotary=20 with the reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to = the 720=20 deg standard for the comparison. 
 
Not taking any sides , but someone = asked where=20 the 2.6 liter figure came from and I hope I have answered = that. =20
 
Ed A
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob White" <bob@bob-white.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = flyrotary_Web_Archive Re:=20 Banishment

> = Hi=20 Dave,
>
> OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 = revolution=20 of the rotors. So
> each rotor has had one intake = event.  Each=20 face has a calculated
> displacement of about 650 cc.  = Two X=20 650 cc =3D 1.3L.  If you can explain
> why it's 2.6L, = maybe I can=20 send Paul an apology.  Or are you just
> trying to get = my goat?=20 :)
>
> I'm not trying to create a big discussion on = the=20 displacement of the
> rotary, I just want to understand = where that=20 2.6L per revolution number
> is comming from.  I = haven't been=20 able to see it.  I think Paul gets it
> from comparing = to a=20 piston engine, and I agree that the 13B compares
> closest = to a 2.6L=20 4 cycle 4 cylinder engine.
>
> Bob W.
> =
>=20
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700
> David Leonard=20 <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
>> Monty, Glad to have you and you know = you will=20 always be welcome here.
>> However, you are wrong and = 'he' is=20 right about the displacement of the 13B.
>> It is 2.6L or = 159.6=20 cubic inches to be more exact.
>>  That is the = volume of=20 intake on one revolution of the e-shaft.
>>  But I = think you=20 knew that, you were just trying to get his goat. ;-)
>>=20
>> --
>> Dave Leonard
>> Turbo Rotary = RV-6=20 N4VY
>> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html<= /A>
>> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=
>>
>>  On 10/16/05, Monty = Roberts=20 <montyr2157@alltel.net>=20 wrote:
>> >
>> > The doctrine of = immaculate=20 ingestion. Whereby molecules of air and fuel
>> > = magically=20 migrate into a very small, very perfect engine,unsullied by=20 the
>> > mere laws of physics, thereby creating the = salvation=20 of the world through
>> > massive power = levels.
>>=20 >  In the protestant tradition of placing the individual = at the=20 front of the
>> > line rather than at the bottom of = the church=20 hierarchy, I will henceforth
>> > place all replies at = the TOP=20 of each post.
>> >  Monty
>> = >  =20 Which doctrine was that Monty?
>> >
>> > = Bob=20 W.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
> =
> --
> http://www.bob-white.com
>=20 N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon)
> Prewired EC2 = Cables -=20 http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/> =
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