X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c5) with ESMTP id 770525 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:14:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j9H3DgWf019031 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000701c5d2c8$cb4b5090$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:13:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C5D2A7.44007820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C5D2A7.44007820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gee, Richard, I'll bet you wouldn't spend time arguing about how many = angles can fit on the head of a pin either {:>) I agree it does not matter in the sense the engine produces what the = engine produces and does it very well, thank you. But, it is = interesting to see the topic come up repeatedly. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Sohn=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:58 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Displacement - Again? Who cares?=20 weight vs hp and BSFC and to some extend, cost, is what counts. I = remember the bureaucrats work on the RO80 and the Spider. There was no = factual basis for their explanation than. So why wasting our energy on = it now. The real problem is that the rotary is a better solution! Richard Sohn N-2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Displacement - Again? Been there, done that {:>). If you are going to compare the power = production of 13B rotary engine with a normal reciprocating engine, = then the accepted standard for a power cycle (for a four stroke) is = 720Deg crankshaft degrees of rotation. 720 degrees of a reciprocating = engine has all cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 cylinder engine.=20 Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes from simplistic sum of the = two 40 CID chambers per rotor. The 2.6 liters takes a bit more = explaining. Where I believe the controversy comes in is that 720 degrees of a = rotary leaves two faces of the 13B yet unfired. For all six faces to = fire it takes 1080 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Each rotor face = rotates 120 rotor degrees for a complete cycle- since the e shaft is = geared 3:1 then 120 deg rotor rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft = rotation. Or another way to look at it is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a = complete rotor revolution) =3D 3*360 =3D 1080 deg of e shaft rotation. =20 Now you can argue that the rotary has not finished its combustion = cycle (all chambers firing) until all six faces have fire (1080 deg) - = however, the accepted standard for a complete cycle of a reciprocating 4 = stroke is 720 degs.=20 So IF you are interested in comparing oranges and oranges, then its = generally accepted you compare only 720 deg of the rotary's rotation to = equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke reciprocating engine. IF you do accept that - then that means 4 rotor faces have gone = through their cycle in 720 deg of e shaft rotation. So at approx 40 CID = per face we have 4 x 40 =3D 160 CID for the 720 deg cycle. And that = turns out to be 2.62 liters of displacement. Its really no different than adding up the total displacement of = all the cylinders in a reciprocating engine which do happen to complete = a power stroke in that standard 720 deg. I think the fact that two = faces or (80 CID of displacement) have not yet fire with the rotary is = what bothers folks in this comparison.=20 But if you are going to compare the power of the two different = designs of engine you have to pick one or the other as the standard of = comparison. And keep the parameters the same for both engines. For = example: If you believe the cycle of the rotary is not complete until all = six faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D 240 CID in the 1080 degree = rotary cycle. We could insist that the reciprocating engine be compared to the = 1080 deg rotation of the rotary, but then you would have to increase the = effective displacement of the reciprocating engine to include an = additional 1/2 of its displacement since it will have gone through = another 360 deg of rotation to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary = cycle of 1080deg. That way you again have oranges and oranges.=20 But, in that case both we and the recip folks could boast about = even more HP than we do now {:>) Since I am mainly interested in comparing a rotary with the = reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to the 720 deg = standard for the comparison.=20 Not taking any sides , but someone asked where the 2.6 liter figure = came from and I hope I have answered that. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bob White" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flyrotary_Web_Archive Re: Banishment > Hi Dave, >=20 > OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 revolution of the rotors. = So > each rotor has had one intake event. Each face has a calculated > displacement of about 650 cc. Two X 650 cc =3D 1.3L. If you can = explain > why it's 2.6L, maybe I can send Paul an apology. Or are you just > trying to get my goat? :) >=20 > I'm not trying to create a big discussion on the displacement of = the > rotary, I just want to understand where that 2.6L per revolution = number > is comming from. I haven't been able to see it. I think Paul = gets it > from comparing to a piston engine, and I agree that the 13B = compares > closest to a 2.6L 4 cycle 4 cylinder engine. >=20 > Bob W. >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700 > David Leonard wrote: >=20 >> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you will always be welcome = here. >> However, you are wrong and 'he' is right about the displacement = of the 13B. >> It is 2.6L or 159.6 cubic inches to be more exact. >> That is the volume of intake on one revolution of the e-shaft. >> But I think you knew that, you were just trying to get his goat. = ;-) >>=20 >> -- >> Dave Leonard >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html >>=20 >> On 10/16/05, Monty Roberts wrote: >> > >> > The doctrine of immaculate ingestion. Whereby molecules of air = and fuel >> > magically migrate into a very small, very perfect = engine,unsullied by the >> > mere laws of physics, thereby creating the salvation of the = world through >> > massive power levels. >> > In the protestant tradition of placing the individual at the = front of the >> > line rather than at the bottom of the church hierarchy, I will = henceforth >> > place all replies at the TOP of each post. >> > Monty >> > Which doctrine was that Monty? >> > >> > Bob W. >> > >> > >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > http://www.bob-white.com > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) > Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C5D2A7.44007820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gee, Richard, I'll bet you wouldn't spend time = arguing=20 about how many angles can fit on the head of a pin either = {:>)
 
I agree it does not matter in the sense the = engine=20 produces what the engine produces and does it very well, thank = you.  But,=20 it is interesting to see the topic come up repeatedly.
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Richard = Sohn=20
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 = 12:58=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Displacement -=20 Again?

Who cares?
weight vs hp and BSFC and to some = extend, cost,=20 is what counts. I remember the bureaucrats work on the RO80 and = the=20 Spider. There was no factual basis for their explanation than. So why = wasting=20 our energy on it now.
The real problem is that the rotary = is a better=20 solution!
 
Richard Sohn
N-2071U
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, October 16, = 2005 7:38=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Displacement -=20 Again?

Been there, done that {:>).  If you = are going=20 to compare the power production of  13B rotary = engine=20 with a normal reciprocating engine, then the accepted standard for = a =20 power cycle (for a four stroke) is 720Deg crankshaft degrees of=20 rotation.  720 degrees of  a reciprocating engine has all=20 cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 cylinder = engine. 
 
Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes=20 from simplistic sum of the two 40 CID chambers per rotor.  = The 2.6=20 liters takes a bit more explaining.
 
 Where I believe the controversy = comes in is=20 that 720 degrees of a rotary leaves two faces of = the 13B yet=20 unfired.  For all six faces to fire  it takes 1080 degrees = of=20 crankshaft rotation.  Each rotor face rotates 120 rotor degrees = for a=20 complete cycle- since the e shaft is geared 3:1 then 120 deg = rotor =20 rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft rotation. Or another = way to look=20 at it is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a complete rotor revolution) = =3D 3*360 =3D=20 1080 deg of e shaft rotation. 
 
Now you can argue that the rotary has not = finished its=20 combustion cycle (all chambers firing) until all six faces have fire = (1080=20 deg) - however, the accepted standard for a complete cycle of a = reciprocating 4 stroke is 720 degs.
 
So IF you are interested in comparing = oranges and=20 oranges, then its generally accepted you compare only 720 = deg of=20 the rotary's rotation to equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke=20 reciprocating engine.
 
IF you do accept = that - then=20 that means 4 rotor faces have gone through their cycle in 720 = deg of e=20 shaft rotation.  So at approx 40 CID per face we have 4 x 40 = =3D 160 CID=20 for the 720 deg cycle. And that turns out to be 2.62 liters of=20 displacement.
 
  Its really no different than adding = up the=20 total displacement of all the cylinders in a reciprocating = engine which=20 do happen to complete a power stroke in that standard 720 deg.  = I think=20 the fact that two faces or (80 CID of displacement) have not yet = fire with=20 the rotary is what bothers folks in this = comparison. 
 
But if you are going to compare the power of = the two=20 different designs of engine you have to pick one or the other as the = standard of comparison.  And keep the parameters the same for = both=20 engines.  For example:
 
If  you believe the cycle of the rotary = is not=20 complete until all six faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D 240 = CID in=20 the 1080 degree rotary cycle.
 
We could insist that the reciprocating = engine be=20 compared to the 1080 deg rotation of the rotary, but then you would = have to=20 increase the effective displacement of the reciprocating engine to = include=20 an additional 1/2 of its displacement since it will have gone = through=20 another 360 deg of rotation to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary = cycle of=20 1080deg. That way you again have oranges and=20 oranges. 
 
 But, in that case both we and the = recip folks=20 could boast about even more HP than we do now {:>)
 
Since I am mainly interested in comparing a = rotary=20 with the reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to the = 720 deg=20 standard for the comparison. 
 
Not taking any sides , but someone = asked where=20 the 2.6 liter figure came from and I hope I have answered = that. =20
 
Ed A
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob White" <bob@bob-white.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = flyrotary_Web_Archive Re:=20 Banishment

> Hi=20 Dave,
>
> OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 = revolution=20 of the rotors. So
> each rotor has had one intake event.  = Each=20 face has a calculated
> displacement of about 650 cc.  = Two X 650=20 cc =3D 1.3L.  If you can explain
> why it's 2.6L, maybe I = can send=20 Paul an apology.  Or are you just
> trying to get my = goat?=20 :)
>
> I'm not trying to create a big discussion on the = displacement of the
> rotary, I just want to understand where = that=20 2.6L per revolution number
> is comming from.  I haven't = been=20 able to see it.  I think Paul gets it
> from comparing to = a=20 piston engine, and I agree that the 13B compares
> closest to = a 2.6L 4=20 cycle 4 cylinder engine.
>
> Bob W.
>
> =
>=20 On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700
> David Leonard = <wdleonard@gmail.com>=20 wrote:
>
>> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you = will=20 always be welcome here.
>> However, you are wrong and 'he' = is right=20 about the displacement of the 13B.
>> It is 2.6L or 159.6 = cubic=20 inches to be more exact.
>>  That is the volume of = intake on=20 one revolution of the e-shaft.
>>  But I think you = knew that,=20 you were just trying to get his goat. ;-)
>>
>>=20 --
>> Dave Leonard
>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
>>=20 http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html<= /A>
>> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=
>>
>>  On 10/16/05, Monty Roberts=20 <montyr2157@alltel.net> = wrote:
>> >
>> > The doctrine of immaculate=20 ingestion. Whereby molecules of air and fuel
>> > = magically=20 migrate into a very small, very perfect engine,unsullied by = the
>>=20 > mere laws of physics, thereby creating the salvation of the = world=20 through
>> > massive power levels.
>> = >  In the=20 protestant tradition of placing the individual at the front of=20 the
>> > line rather than at the bottom of the church = hierarchy,=20 I will henceforth
>> > place all replies at the TOP of = each=20 post.
>> >  Monty
>> >   = Which=20 doctrine was that Monty?
>> >
>> > Bob=20 W.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
> =
>=20 --
> http://www.bob-white.com
>=20 N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon)
> Prewired EC2 Cables = -=20 http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/>
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