X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c5) with ESMTP id 770491 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:38:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j9H2c8fV009708 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000601c5d2c3$d2c35700$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Displacement - Again? Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:38:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C5D2A2.4B7152A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C5D2A2.4B7152A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Been there, done that {:>). If you are going to compare the power = production of 13B rotary engine with a normal reciprocating engine, = then the accepted standard for a power cycle (for a four stroke) is = 720Deg crankshaft degrees of rotation. 720 degrees of a reciprocating = engine has all cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 or 12 cylinder engine.=20 Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes from simplistic sum of the two 40 = CID chambers per rotor. The 2.6 liters takes a bit more explaining. =20 Where I believe the controversy comes in is that 720 degrees of a = rotary leaves two faces of the 13B yet unfired. For all six faces to = fire it takes 1080 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Each rotor face = rotates 120 rotor degrees for a complete cycle- since the e shaft is = geared 3:1 then 120 deg rotor rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft = rotation. Or another way to look at it is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a = complete rotor revolution) =3D 3*360 =3D 1080 deg of e shaft rotation. =20 Now you can argue that the rotary has not finished its combustion cycle = (all chambers firing) until all six faces have fire (1080 deg) - = however, the accepted standard for a complete cycle of a reciprocating 4 = stroke is 720 degs.=20 So IF you are interested in comparing oranges and oranges, then its = generally accepted you compare only 720 deg of the rotary's rotation to = equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke reciprocating engine. IF you do accept that - then that means 4 rotor faces have gone through = their cycle in 720 deg of e shaft rotation. So at approx 40 CID per = face we have 4 x 40 =3D 160 CID for the 720 deg cycle. And that turns = out to be 2.62 liters of displacement. Its really no different than adding up the total displacement of all = the cylinders in a reciprocating engine which do happen to complete a = power stroke in that standard 720 deg. I think the fact that two faces = or (80 CID of displacement) have not yet fire with the rotary is what = bothers folks in this comparison.=20 But if you are going to compare the power of the two different designs = of engine you have to pick one or the other as the standard of = comparison. And keep the parameters the same for both engines. For = example: If you believe the cycle of the rotary is not complete until all six = faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D 240 CID in the 1080 degree = rotary cycle. We could insist that the reciprocating engine be compared to the 1080 = deg rotation of the rotary, but then you would have to increase the = effective displacement of the reciprocating engine to include an = additional 1/2 of its displacement since it will have gone through = another 360 deg of rotation to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary = cycle of 1080deg. That way you again have oranges and oranges.=20 But, in that case both we and the recip folks could boast about even = more HP than we do now {:>) Since I am mainly interested in comparing a rotary with the = reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to the 720 deg = standard for the comparison.=20 =20 Not taking any sides , but someone asked where the 2.6 liter figure came = from and I hope I have answered that. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bob White" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flyrotary_Web_Archive Re: Banishment > Hi Dave, >=20 > OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 revolution of the rotors. So > each rotor has had one intake event. Each face has a calculated > displacement of about 650 cc. Two X 650 cc =3D 1.3L. If you can = explain > why it's 2.6L, maybe I can send Paul an apology. Or are you just > trying to get my goat? :) >=20 > I'm not trying to create a big discussion on the displacement of the > rotary, I just want to understand where that 2.6L per revolution = number > is comming from. I haven't been able to see it. I think Paul gets it > from comparing to a piston engine, and I agree that the 13B compares > closest to a 2.6L 4 cycle 4 cylinder engine. >=20 > Bob W. >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59 -0700 > David Leonard wrote: >=20 >> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you will always be welcome here. >> However, you are wrong and 'he' is right about the displacement of = the 13B. >> It is 2.6L or 159.6 cubic inches to be more exact. >> That is the volume of intake on one revolution of the e-shaft. >> But I think you knew that, you were just trying to get his goat. ;-) >>=20 >> -- >> Dave Leonard >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html >> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html >>=20 >> On 10/16/05, Monty Roberts wrote: >> > >> > The doctrine of immaculate ingestion. Whereby molecules of air and = fuel >> > magically migrate into a very small, very perfect engine,unsullied = by the >> > mere laws of physics, thereby creating the salvation of the world = through >> > massive power levels. >> > In the protestant tradition of placing the individual at the front = of the >> > line rather than at the bottom of the church hierarchy, I will = henceforth >> > place all replies at the TOP of each post. >> > Monty >> > Which doctrine was that Monty? >> > >> > Bob W. >> > >> > >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > http://www.bob-white.com > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) > Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C5D2A2.4B7152A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Been there, done that {:>).  If you are = going to=20 compare the power production of  13B rotary engine = with a=20 normal reciprocating engine, then the accepted standard for a  = power cycle=20 (for a four stroke) is 720Deg crankshaft degrees of rotation.  720 = degrees=20 of  a reciprocating engine has all cylinders firing be it a 4,6,8 = or 12=20 cylinder engine. 
 
Clearly the 80 CID or 1.3 Liters comes=20 from simplistic sum of the two 40 CID chambers per rotor.  The = 2.6=20 liters takes a bit more explaining.
 
 Where I believe the controversy comes = in is=20 that 720 degrees of a rotary leaves two faces of the 13B yet=20 unfired.  For all six faces to fire  it takes 1080 degrees of=20 crankshaft rotation.  Each rotor face rotates 120 rotor degrees for = a=20 complete cycle- since the e shaft is geared 3:1 then 120 deg rotor  = rotation =3D 3*120 =3D 360Deg of E shaft rotation. Or another way = to look at it=20 is 360 deg of rotor rotation ( a complete rotor revolution) =3D 3*360 = =3D 1080 deg=20 of e shaft rotation. 
 
Now you can argue that the rotary has not = finished its=20 combustion cycle (all chambers firing) until all six faces have fire = (1080=20 deg) - however, the accepted standard for a complete cycle of a=20 reciprocating 4 stroke is 720 degs.
 
So IF you are interested in comparing oranges = and oranges,=20 then its generally accepted you compare only 720 deg of the = rotary's=20 rotation to equal the 720 deg of a normal 4 stroke reciprocating=20 engine.
 
IF you do accept that - = then that=20 means 4 rotor faces have gone through their cycle in 720 deg of e = shaft=20 rotation.  So at approx 40 CID per face we have 4 x 40 =3D 160 CID = for the=20 720 deg cycle. And that turns out to be 2.62 liters of=20 displacement.
 
  Its really no different than adding up = the=20 total displacement of all the cylinders in a reciprocating engine = which do=20 happen to complete a power stroke in that standard 720 deg.  I = think the=20 fact that two faces or (80 CID of displacement) have not yet fire with = the=20 rotary is what bothers folks in this comparison. 
 
But if you are going to compare the power of the = two=20 different designs of engine you have to pick one or the other as the = standard of=20 comparison.  And keep the parameters the same for both = engines.  For=20 example:
 
If  you believe the cycle of the rotary is = not=20 complete until all six faces have fired then you have 6 x 40 =3D 240 CID = in the=20 1080 degree rotary cycle.
 
We could insist that the reciprocating engine be = compared=20 to the 1080 deg rotation of the rotary, but then you would have to = increase the=20 effective displacement of the reciprocating engine to include an = additional 1/2=20 of its displacement since it will have gone through another 360 deg of = rotation=20 to match (720 + 360 =3D 1080) the rotary cycle of 1080deg. That way = you again=20 have oranges and oranges. 
 
 But, in that case both we and the recip = folks could=20 boast about even more HP than we do now {:>)
 
Since I am mainly interested in comparing a = rotary with=20 the reciprocating engines production of power, I adhere to the 720 deg = standard=20 for the comparison. 
 
Not taking any sides , but someone asked = where the=20 2.6 liter figure came from and I hope I have answered that.  =
 
Ed A
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob White" <bob@bob-white.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:21 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flyrotary_Web_Archive = Re:=20 Banishment

> Hi = Dave,
>=20
> OK, one revolution of the e-shaft is 1/3 revolution of the = rotors.=20 So
> each rotor has had one intake event.  Each face has a=20 calculated
> displacement of about 650 cc.  Two X 650 cc =3D=20 1.3L.  If you can explain
> why it's 2.6L, maybe I can send = Paul an=20 apology.  Or are you just
> trying to get my goat? :)
> =
> I'm not trying to create a big discussion on the displacement = of=20 the
> rotary, I just want to understand where that 2.6L per = revolution=20 number
> is comming from.  I haven't been able to see = it.  I=20 think Paul gets it
> from comparing to a piston engine, and I = agree that=20 the 13B compares
> closest to a 2.6L 4 cycle 4 cylinder = engine.
>=20
> Bob W.
>
>
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:27:59=20 -0700
> David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:
>=20
>> Monty, Glad to have you and you know you will always be = welcome=20 here.
>> However, you are wrong and 'he' is right about the=20 displacement of the 13B.
>> It is 2.6L or 159.6 cubic inches to = be more=20 exact.
>>  That is the volume of intake on one revolution = of the=20 e-shaft.
>>  But I think you knew that, you were just = trying to=20 get his goat. ;-)
>>
>> --
>> Dave=20 Leonard
>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
>> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html<= /A>
>> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=
>>
>>  On 10/16/05, Monty Roberts = <montyr2157@alltel.net>=20 wrote:
>> >
>> > The doctrine of immaculate = ingestion.=20 Whereby molecules of air and fuel
>> > magically migrate = into a very=20 small, very perfect engine,unsullied by the
>> > mere laws = of=20 physics, thereby creating the salvation of the world through
>> = >=20 massive power levels.
>> >  In the protestant tradition = of=20 placing the individual at the front of the
>> > line rather = than at=20 the bottom of the church hierarchy, I will henceforth
>> > = place all=20 replies at the TOP of each post.
>> >  = Monty
>>=20 >   Which doctrine was that Monty?
>> = >
>>=20 > Bob W.
>> >
>> >
>>
> =
>=20
> --
> http://www.bob-white.com
> N93BD -=20 Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon)
> Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/> ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C5D2A2.4B7152A0--