Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com ([24.93.67.83] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1b9) with ESMTP id 2474492 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:13:59 -0400 Received: from o7y6b5 (clt78-221.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.221]) by ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h6EEAuqQ022258 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01d901c34a13$50583d20$1702a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 2nd and 3rd run logs Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:22:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C349F1.C90CA160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C349F1.C90CA160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:47 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 2nd and 3rd run logs As I understand it, the injectors are staged. The secondaries only cut = in at a certain rpm. So, if you're rpm is below the staging point, and = you kill the primaries you have no fuel and engine will quit. Above the = staging point the secondaries would be supplying fuel. Just a theory, = but it makes sense to me... Regards, John I was thinking that Tracy took this into account, but after reading = the instructions again, it does look like he just depends on the cold = start function to add fuel. I guess you won't be using any power = setting below the secondary staging point during normal flight, except = for maybe a steep descent. =20 Of course I have to wonder, why not just run them all, all the time? = Mazda probably made them staged for emissions, or drivability, but there = are FD guys running four 1600 injectors, who seem to idle just fine with = two 1600 injectors. Surely I can idle with four 550's. I think the = staging point is adjustable, but I'll have to look at the manual again = tomorrow. I might just be tempted to try running all four full time. =20 Rusty Rusty, I think you would find that you would have too much fuel in the = intake at low rpms. That is the primary reason that the EFI's have = staged injectors. The larger the flow rate of the injectors, the worst = the problem becomes at idle. It gets to the point where the injectors = would have to react to sub millisecond pulses to dispense the small = amount of fuel needed for idle, just cheaper to stage than try to = develop injectors that responsive. The low flow limit on MOST EFI fuel = injectors is around 1-2milliseconds. If the pulse is less than that the = injector simply can not open and close responsive enough. If you set it up as Tracy recommends, you can run the engine on either = pair of injectors at any engine regime from idle to WOT. Now at WOT = with only one pair you may not get quite as much power as when using = only two injectors they will reach satuation (simple stay open and don't = close) at some rpm/power point. Then, of course, no additional fuel = will flow. I haven't calculated what that point is and its further up = the rpm range for the larger flow injectors. But, I can tell you a = rotary powered RV has no problem staying airborn with only two 460cc/min = injectors working. My engine seems limited to around 5800-5900 rpm with = only two inejctors and can get up to around 6100-6200 with all four = pumping fuel. FWIW Ed Anderson ------=_NextPart_000_01D6_01C349F1.C90CA160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 = 12:47=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 2nd = and 3rd run=20 logs

As I understand it, the = injectors=20 are staged. The secondaries only cut in at a certain rpm. So, if = you're rpm is=20 below the staging point, and you kill the primaries you have no fuel = and=20 engine will quit. Above the staging point the secondaries would be = supplying=20 fuel. Just a theory, but it makes sense to = me...

Regards,

John

 

I was = thinking that=20 Tracy took this = into=20 account, but after reading the instructions again, it does look like = he just=20 depends on the cold start function to add fuel.  I guess you = won=92t be=20 using any power setting below the secondary staging point during = normal=20 flight, except for maybe a steep descent. 

 

Of course I = have to=20 wonder, why not just run them all, all the time?  Mazda probably = made=20 them staged for emissions, or drivability, but there are FD guys = running four=20 1600 injectors, who seem to idle just fine with two 1600 = injectors. =20 Surely I can idle with four 550=92s.  I think the staging point = is=20 adjustable, but I=92ll have to look at the manual again = tomorrow.  I might=20 just be tempted to try running all four full time.  =

 

Rusty

 

 

Rusty, I = think you=20 would find that you would have too much fuel in the intake at low = rpms. =20 That is the primary reason that the EFI's have staged injectors.  = The=20 larger the flow rate of the  injectors, the worst the problem = becomes at=20 idle.  It gets to the point where the injectors would have to = react to=20 sub millisecond pulses to dispense the small amount of fuel needed for = idle,=20 just cheaper to stage than try to develop injectors that = responsive.  The=20 low flow limit on MOST EFI fuel injectors is around = 1-2milliseconds.  If=20 the pulse is less than that the injector simply can not open and close = responsive enough.

 

If you set = it up as=20 Tracy recommends, you can run the engine on either pair of injectors = at any=20 engine regime from idle to WOT.  Now at WOT with only one pair = you may=20 not get quite as much power as when using only two injectors they will = reach=20 satuation (simple stay open and don't close) at some rpm/power = point. =20 Then, of course, no additional fuel will flow.  I haven't = calculated what=20 that point is and its further up the rpm range for the larger flow=20 injectors.  But, I can tell you a rotary powered RV has no = problem=20 staying airborn with only two 460cc/min injectors working.  My = engine=20 seems limited to around 5800-5900 rpm with only two inejctors and can = get up=20 to around 6100-6200 with all four pumping fuel.

 

FWIW

 

Ed=20 Anderson

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