Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #21075
From: Leon <peon@pacific.net.au>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Re : oil injection pump
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:13:06 +1000
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Beadle
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 7:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Re : oil injection pump

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Leon
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:50 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Re : oil injection pump

Hi Al,
 
Our contretemps about BMEP aside,  it looks like we are in most violent agreement about oil injection!!  (]:>)  This oil injection pump removal/replacement/2 stroke oil nonsense was just another of Lamar's ratbag theoretical boondoggles that he misled everybody into believing,  like Hurley seals were better than stock Mazda ones!! 
 
I remember several years ago trying to set him (and his ACRE acolytes) straight on the causes of carbon build-up on rotors,  and all I copped was abuse.  With all due apologies to David Staten,  for sure,  the carbon build up does come from sump oil,  but NOT from what was injected.  Where did David get his info?  Personal experience and observation of thousands of stripped engines,  or from ACRE?? (my money is on the latter!!)
 
The carbon build-up that has been reported is from oil that had refluxed past hardened rubber oil control O rings.  Even so,  that carbon build up on the rotors only ever happens in cars that are driven slowly in traffic,  especially on short trips for most of their life (where the engine never reaches proper operarting temp).  Run the engines hard and the carbon build-up never occurs (which is what will happen in aircraft apps).   But then again,  what would Dave Atkins or I know?? 
 
While we always use pre-mix in the race car engines, I still leave the metering pump in place (but with the actuating rod permanently set at about 1/4 on).  That way,  I don't empty the sump un-necessarily,  but there is always a dribble of engine oil in case somebody forgets to add premix in the fuel and is enough to save an engine.  Very klittle oil is actually needed.
 
I had it happen once to my own race car - (I let somebody else drive it when I was away on holidays and he forgot to add the premix).  I really didn't appreciate having to rebuild a $10K engine).  Over the years,  I've seen it happen to many other young & not so young players as well.
 
I'm a great fan of sump oil injection for normal use,  and I'd have to wholeheartedly agree with Dave Atkins experience. It tallys directly with mine.  While not having any direct experience in aircraft apps,  I've seen dozens of correctly serviced RX7 12A engines go anywhere from 350,000 to 550,000 km in the last  20 years or so,  especially the '84-'85 Series III units. 
 
As an example,  a buddy of mine just bought his #1 son a one owner '85 Limited Editon RX7 last week.  275,000 km on the clock,  original motor,  oil changed religeously every six months (Mobil 1).  Yep,  for sure,  it's definitely a bit smokey on start-up (but it still starts first hit every time),  it still goes like a rocket,  and compression is still around 7.5 Kg/sq cm.  'Nuff said??
 
We'll give it a security overhaul at some stage,  but all it will need will be apex seals,  corner seals,  oil control O rings,  and a full set of new springs.  Then it'll probably go anothe 200,000 + km.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon 
 
Leon why do you use premix in your race car?
 
Ian Beadle  W. Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Al Gietzen
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:50 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Re : oil injection pump

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Re : oil injection pump

 

Al....
    I would implore you to NOT do that... unless you plan to lube the whole engine with clean burning oil. This one issue will likely contribute to early wear and loss of compression than any other factor.
 

Well; I understand that most folks have gotten on the bandwagon for mixing 2-cycle oil with the gas; or feeding 2-cycle oil.  However; there is at least one “expert”; also the rebuilder of my engine, David Atkins, who says that his experience (which is considerable) shows that it is not necessary.  David says that he has seen no evidence that there is any problem injecting pan oil, IF you use high quality oil (Amsoil is his choice) and change it regularly.  He has examined the longest running engine in an aircraft (rotorcraft, over 1500 hrs is last I heard about) that injected pan oil, and saw no evidence off carbon buildup.

 

I have asked this question in the past (maybe not on this list): Is there evidence that, with the good oil and regular changes, that using the pan oil is a problem?  No evidence has been provided.  The concern about carbon buildup and stuck seals comes primarily from engines run for street use, of unknown servicing and oil usage, many of which came from junked cars.

 

Using 2-cycle oil makes sense to me as well; but I prefer to avoid the added hassle of mixing oil with gas, or adding another tank and carrying another kind of oil unless there is a reason to do so for our application.

 

Al (ready to accept all evidence)

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