X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [199.185.220.224] (HELO priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 868375 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:37:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.185.220.224; envelope-from=haywire@telus.net Received: from Endurance ([207.216.158.117]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with SMTP id <20050414053615.YJPH28631.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@Endurance> for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:36:15 -0600 From: "Todd Bartrim" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: C-FSTB Cooling system pics 1 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:36:03 -0700 Message-ID: <005501c540b3$d9eb5750$0101a8c0@Endurance> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01C54079.2D8C7F50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C54079.2D8C7F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Todd, I was able to enlarge the photos to 8 x 10 using PhotoShop without losing much detail. Now I can finally say I got the picture. Hi Jerry; I'm glad you were able to get the detail you needed. I reduced them to a smaller size than I would have liked due to the large number that I was sending. If you'd like a larger copy of any of the pics, I can send them off-line to avoid filling the archives. Do you find it necessary to run both EWP's and the EBP in normal flight? Do you see significant flow increases over just using one pump? In normal flight I only need to run one EWP. When I only had the one EWP it was fine for all phases of flight, but when I put the second one in series, I lose ~30% of the flow if the second pump is off (as compared to the single pump installation), but when second pump is on I gain ~50%. So now during climb out I use both pumps. I can turn off the second pump during cruise. The EBP really isn't necessary. I have the electronic controller on my primary EWP but the second EWP is on/off. During long descents from high altitude during cool weather, I found that the primary EWP controller would reduce flow to minimum, resulting in a cold cockpit. The EBP provides coolant to the heater core while ensuring a greater than minimum coolant flow through the hottest part of the engine, while at the same time not cooling it excessively. As I said, this is probably not required for most of you southerners. I did notice something way back when I was still running with a single EWP and no EBP. I was doing touch & go's on a sub-zero day and I had the single EWP controlled by the electronic temp/speed controller. The pump would be at full speed during climb out, then would reduce speed a little on the downwind, then during the short descent it would go to minimum speed in an effort to maintain engine temp. As I touched down and applied power to climb out again the pump speed would increase again. However I then noticed the coolant pressure which would reduce to near zero as the engine cooled, would suddenly spike momentarily as I applied power, then within seconds would return to normal as the pump speed increased. This tells me that I was seeing some localized boiling during the lag time until the temp sensor sensed the increase and the controller sped up the pump. My temp sensor is located in the EWP adapter block that I built, so is at the exit of the coolant from the engine. RTD's are fast acting temp sensors, but the coolant at minimum flow does take a few seconds or more to travel from the hottest part of the engine to the exit. I'd expect that if I'd placed the sensor at the rear end plate location (below the oil press sensor) I would see much better response. However I installed a bypass switch when I installed the controller which allows me to provide full 12v to the pump, so I just began to leave it on while doing touch & go's. The engine cools a little much, but not a big deal. Now with the EBP installed this shouldn't ever be an issue. I should stress that it is not required to have this or even a second pump if an EWP is desired. It just what I decided to go with based on my environment and desire to experiment I have a lot more room under the cowl than you had to work with. Amazing you got it all stuffed in there. Jerry What was that you were building? Todd (no BUC needed) ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C54079.2D8C7F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Todd, I was able to enlarge = the=20 photos to 8 x 10 using PhotoShop without losing much detail. Now I can = finally=20 say I got the picture.
Hi=20 Jerry;
    I'm glad you were able to get the detail you = needed. I=20 reduced them to a smaller size than I would have liked due to the large = number=20 that I was sending. If you'd like a larger copy of any of the pics, I = can send=20 them off-line to avoid filling the archives.
 
Do you find it necessary to run = both EWP's=20 and the EBP in normal flight? Do you see significant flow increases over = just=20 using one pump?
    In normal flight I only need to run one EWP. = When I only=20 had the one EWP it was fine for all phases of flight, but when I put the = second=20 one in series, I lose ~30% of the flow if the second pump is off (as = compared to=20 the single pump installation), but when second pump is on I gain ~50%. = So now=20 during climb out I use both pumps. I can turn off the second pump during = cruise.=20 The EBP really isn't necessary. I have the electronic controller on my = primary=20 EWP but the second EWP is on/off. During long descents from high = altitude during=20 cool weather, I found that the primary EWP controller would reduce flow = to=20 minimum, resulting in a cold cockpit. The EBP provides coolant to the = heater=20 core while ensuring a greater than minimum coolant flow through the = hottest part=20 of the engine, while at the same time not cooling it excessively. As I = said,=20 this is probably not required for most of you = southerners.
    I did notice something way back when I was = still running=20 with a single EWP and no EBP. I was doing touch & go's on a sub-zero = day and=20 I had the single EWP controlled by the electronic temp/speed controller. = The=20 pump would be at full speed during climb out, then would reduce speed a = little=20 on the downwind, then during the short descent it would go to minimum = speed in=20 an effort to maintain engine temp. As I touched down and applied power = to climb=20 out again the pump speed would increase again. However I then noticed = the=20 coolant pressure which would reduce to near zero as the engine cooled, = would=20 suddenly spike momentarily as I applied power, then within seconds would = return=20 to normal as the pump speed increased. This tells me that I was seeing = some=20 localized boiling during the lag time until the temp sensor sensed the = increase=20 and the controller sped up the pump. My temp sensor is located in the = EWP=20 adapter block that I built, so is at the exit of the coolant from the = engine.=20 RTD's are fast acting temp sensors, but the coolant at minimum flow does = take a=20 few seconds or more to travel from the hottest part of the engine to the = exit.=20 I'd expect that if I'd placed the sensor at the rear end plate location = (below=20 the oil press sensor) I would see much better response. However I = installed a=20 bypass switch when I installed the controller which allows me to provide = full=20 12v to the pump, so I just began to leave it on while doing touch & = go's.=20 The engine cools a little much, but not a big deal. Now with the EBP = installed=20 this shouldn't ever be an issue.
     I should stress that it is not = required to=20 have this or even a second pump if an EWP is desired. It just what I = decided to=20 go with based on my environment and desire to = experiment
 
I have a lot more room under the = cowl than=20 you had to work with. Amazing you got it all stuffed in there. Jerry=20
    What was that you were=20 building?
 
 
Todd    (no BUC = needed)


 
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