X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from mail05.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.186] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTPS id 868081 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:12:00 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.186; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-104-210.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.104.210]) by mail05.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j3DMBAJf012814 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:11:11 +1000 Message-ID: <002d01c54076$36d0f670$d268ecdc@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Cost of Ceramic Seals Was Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:14:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C540CA.08309420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C540CA.08309420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, I must say, from what Lynn and others say, these ceramic seals last = forever, especially under our conditions. I guess it boils down to what you can afford, they would certainly cause = less wear on the housing as well.=20 I will have to look at that down the track! George ( down under) Sorry, George, I was mistaken, the seals are only $300 each or $1800 = for a set - only 1/2 the price I first mentioned {:>) Ed Quote from Mazdatrix on Ceramic seals Note!!: These cost about $300 EACH ! -- that means about $1800 (yes!) = for 6 seals to do a 2-rotor engine. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block It would seem to me that they are saying they run the rotors = backwards - that would put the recess in the rotor face backwards. The deeper side is to the side of rotation I'm sure that would cause = some power loss - then again I'm not the expert! The ceramic apex seals are the seals of choice, I didn't know they = were that expensive! George (down under) Appended below is an e mail from the owner of MazdaTrix about = using the Rx-8 rotor in an RX-7 block. Interesting reading, now if only = the ceramic seals were not $3600 for a set for two rotors I'd be ready = {:>). Makes for interesting reading. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com Here is an e-mail that Dave Lemon from Mazdatrix sent an RX-7 = forum member on the subject. Just thought you guys would find it = interesting: We are using RX-8 rotors in one of our SCCA E/Production "street = port" 86-91 13B non-turbo engines. We do no mods to the rotors (except installing the racing rotor = bearing). We are using RX-8 racing ceramic apex seals (the OEM RX-8 steel = seals warped too much having to cross the exhaust port). (There IS enough metal to cut the apex seal groove for either = 86-91 2mm seals or earlier 3mm seals -- we are looking into making that = service available, but are not ready yet) The rotors are run "backwards" (front in rear, rear in front) so = the angle cut on the side of the rotor gives more intake opening timing = (RX-8 uses the cuts for the side exhaust ports). Do not use the "oil scraper ring" outside the second oil control = ring. DO NOT use RX-8 corner seals -- they DESTROY 86-91 side housings = !!!! (use 86-91 corner seals, TRUST ME). They ARE lighter than 89-91 non-turbo rotors, have higher = compression, and are less expensive. With all of the above said: We have YET to attain even the SAME = horsepower on the dyno as we are getting from our race engine(s) using = the 89-91 non-turbo rotors !!! Potentials: With the RX-8 rotor having the side seal further outboard, we were = able to increase the (ported) intake opening timing versus the earlier = rotors -- it may be too much ??? (does not seem likely) Running the rotors with the angle cut for intake opening may also = be in the above category. We always set pre-92 side seal clearance at about .0015 (1 1/2 = thou). The SMALLEST clearance we could get, using the LONGEST of the = available "pre-sized" RX-8 side seals was about .010 (10 thou), with the = worst on this set of rotors of about .016 (16 thou). This gives a much = lower "sealing" than we like. Other than the above, at this time we are not at all sure why the = power is less than when using the earlier rotors. No, we have not done the REAL test -- run the SAME engine on the = dyno, and only swap the rotors (backwards, then normal). That equals = three builds, and three full dyno on-and-offs + dyno sessions.=20 Dave Lemon,=20 Owner of Mazdatrix,=20 The dyno operator and driver of the E/P car ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C540CA.08309420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
I must say, from what Lynn and others = say, these=20 ceramic seals last forever, especially under our = conditions.
 
I guess it boils down to what you can = afford, they=20 would certainly cause less wear on the housing as = well. 
 
I will have to look at that down the=20 track!
George ( down under)
Sorry, George, I was mistaken, the = seals are only=20 $300 each or $1800 for a set - only 1/2 the price I first mentioned=20 {:>)
 
Ed
 
Quote from Mazdatrix on Ceramic=20 seals
 
Note!!: These cost about $300 EACH ! -- = that means=20 about $1800 (yes!) for 6 seals to do a 2-rotor = engine.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, = 2005 2:38=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rx-8 = Rotors in=20 Rx-7 Block

It would seem to me that they are = saying they=20 run the rotors backwards - that would put the recess in the rotor = face=20 backwards.
 
The deeper side is to the side of = rotation I'm=20 sure that would cause some power loss - then again I'm not the=20 expert!
 
The ceramic apex seals are the = seals of choice,=20 I didn't know they were that expensive!
 
George (down under)
Appended below is an e mail from = the owner of=20 MazdaTrix about using the Rx-8 rotor in an RX-7 block.  = Interesting=20 reading, now if only the ceramic seals were not $3600 for a set = for two=20 rotors I'd be ready {:>).  Makes for interesting=20 reading.
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
 
Here is an e-mail that Dave Lemon from Mazdatrix sent an RX-7 = forum=20 member on the subject. Just thought you guys would find it=20 interesting:



We are using RX-8 rotors in one of our = SCCA=20 E/Production "street port" 86-91 13B non-turbo engines.

We = do no=20 mods to the rotors (except installing the racing rotor = bearing).
We are=20 using RX-8 racing ceramic apex seals (the OEM RX-8 steel seals = warped too=20 much having to cross the exhaust port).
(There IS enough metal = to cut=20 the apex seal groove for either 86-91 2mm seals or earlier 3mm = seals -- we=20 are looking into making that service available, but are not ready=20 yet)
The rotors are run "backwards" (front in rear, rear in = front) so=20 the angle cut on the side of the rotor gives more intake opening = timing=20 (RX-8 uses the cuts for the side exhaust ports).
Do not use the = "oil=20 scraper ring" outside the second oil control ring.
DO NOT use = RX-8=20 corner seals -- they DESTROY 86-91 side housings !!!! (use 86-91 = corner=20 seals, TRUST ME).

They ARE = lighter than=20 89-91 non-turbo rotors, have higher compression, and are less=20 expensive.

With all of the above said: We = have YET=20 to attain even the SAME horsepower on the dyno as we are getting = from our=20 race engine(s) using the 89-91 non-turbo rotors=20 !!!

Potentials:
With the RX-8 rotor having the side seal = further=20 outboard, we were able to increase the (ported) intake opening = timing=20 versus the earlier rotors -- it may be too much ??? (does not seem = likely)

Running the rotors with the angle cut for intake = opening=20 may also be in the above category.

We always set pre-92 = side seal=20 clearance at about .0015 (1 1/2 thou). The SMALLEST clearance we = could=20 get, using the LONGEST of the available "pre-sized" RX-8 side = seals was=20 about .010 (10 thou), with the worst on this set of rotors of = about .016=20 (16 thou). This gives a much lower "sealing" than we = like.

Other=20 than the above, at this time we are not at all sure why the power = is less=20 than when using the earlier rotors.

No, we have not done = the REAL=20 test -- run the SAME engine on the dyno, and only swap the rotors=20 (backwards, then normal). That equals three builds, and three full = dyno=20 on-and-offs + dyno sessions.


Dave Lemon,
Owner of=20 Mazdatrix,
The dyno operator and driver of the E/P=20 car
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