X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 867432 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:47:39 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3DCkp0W007588 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005001c54026$e0c0bdf0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Cost of Ceramic Seals Was Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:46:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01C54005.5981CC60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C54005.5981CC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, George, I was mistaken, the seals are only $300 each or $1800 for = a set - only 1/2 the price I first mentioned {:>) Ed Quote from Mazdatrix on Ceramic seals Note!!: These cost about $300 EACH ! -- that means about $1800 (yes!) = for 6 seals to do a 2-rotor engine. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block It would seem to me that they are saying they run the rotors backwards = - that would put the recess in the rotor face backwards. The deeper side is to the side of rotation I'm sure that would cause = some power loss - then again I'm not the expert! The ceramic apex seals are the seals of choice, I didn't know they = were that expensive! George (down under) Appended below is an e mail from the owner of MazdaTrix about using = the Rx-8 rotor in an RX-7 block. Interesting reading, now if only the = ceramic seals were not $3600 for a set for two rotors I'd be ready {:>). = Makes for interesting reading. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com Here is an e-mail that Dave Lemon from Mazdatrix sent an RX-7 forum = member on the subject. Just thought you guys would find it interesting: We are using RX-8 rotors in one of our SCCA E/Production "street = port" 86-91 13B non-turbo engines. We do no mods to the rotors (except installing the racing rotor = bearing). We are using RX-8 racing ceramic apex seals (the OEM RX-8 steel = seals warped too much having to cross the exhaust port). (There IS enough metal to cut the apex seal groove for either 86-91 = 2mm seals or earlier 3mm seals -- we are looking into making that = service available, but are not ready yet) The rotors are run "backwards" (front in rear, rear in front) so the = angle cut on the side of the rotor gives more intake opening timing = (RX-8 uses the cuts for the side exhaust ports). Do not use the "oil scraper ring" outside the second oil control = ring. DO NOT use RX-8 corner seals -- they DESTROY 86-91 side housings = !!!! (use 86-91 corner seals, TRUST ME). They ARE lighter than 89-91 non-turbo rotors, have higher = compression, and are less expensive. With all of the above said: We have YET to attain even the SAME = horsepower on the dyno as we are getting from our race engine(s) using = the 89-91 non-turbo rotors !!! Potentials: With the RX-8 rotor having the side seal further outboard, we were = able to increase the (ported) intake opening timing versus the earlier = rotors -- it may be too much ??? (does not seem likely) Running the rotors with the angle cut for intake opening may also be = in the above category. We always set pre-92 side seal clearance at about .0015 (1 1/2 = thou). The SMALLEST clearance we could get, using the LONGEST of the = available "pre-sized" RX-8 side seals was about .010 (10 thou), with the = worst on this set of rotors of about .016 (16 thou). This gives a much = lower "sealing" than we like. Other than the above, at this time we are not at all sure why the = power is less than when using the earlier rotors. No, we have not done the REAL test -- run the SAME engine on the = dyno, and only swap the rotors (backwards, then normal). That equals = three builds, and three full dyno on-and-offs + dyno sessions.=20 Dave Lemon,=20 Owner of Mazdatrix,=20 The dyno operator and driver of the E/P car ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C54005.5981CC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, George, I was mistaken, the = seals are only=20 $300 each or $1800 for a set - only 1/2 the price I first mentioned=20 {:>)
 
Ed
 
Quote from Mazdatrix on Ceramic = seals
 
Note!!: These cost about $300 EACH ! -- that = means=20 about $1800 (yes!) for 6 seals to do a 2-rotor = engine.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 = 2:38=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rx-8 = Rotors in=20 Rx-7 Block

It would seem to me that they are = saying they run=20 the rotors backwards - that would put the recess in the rotor face=20 backwards.
 
The deeper side is to the side of = rotation I'm=20 sure that would cause some power loss - then again I'm not the=20 expert!
 
The ceramic apex seals are the seals = of choice, I=20 didn't know they were that expensive!
 
George (down under)
Appended below is an e mail from = the owner of=20 MazdaTrix about using the Rx-8 rotor in an RX-7 block.  = Interesting=20 reading, now if only the ceramic seals were not $3600 for a set for = two=20 rotors I'd be ready {:>).  Makes for interesting=20 reading.
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
 
Here is an e-mail that Dave Lemon from Mazdatrix sent an RX-7 = forum=20 member on the subject. Just thought you guys would find it=20 interesting:



We are using RX-8 rotors in one of our = SCCA=20 E/Production "street port" 86-91 13B non-turbo engines.

We do = no mods=20 to the rotors (except installing the racing rotor bearing).
We = are using=20 RX-8 racing ceramic apex seals (the OEM RX-8 steel seals warped too = much=20 having to cross the exhaust port).
(There IS enough metal to cut = the apex=20 seal groove for either 86-91 2mm seals or earlier 3mm seals -- we = are=20 looking into making that service available, but are not ready = yet)
The=20 rotors are run "backwards" (front in rear, rear in front) so the = angle cut=20 on the side of the rotor gives more intake opening timing (RX-8 uses = the=20 cuts for the side exhaust ports).
Do not use the "oil scraper = ring"=20 outside the second oil control ring.
DO NOT use RX-8 corner seals = -- they=20 DESTROY 86-91 side housings !!!! (use 86-91 corner seals, TRUST=20 ME).

They ARE lighter than = 89-91=20 non-turbo rotors, have higher compression, and are less=20 expensive.

With all of the above said: We = have YET to=20 attain even the SAME horsepower on the dyno as we are getting from = our race=20 engine(s) using the 89-91 non-turbo rotors = !!!

Potentials:
With=20 the RX-8 rotor having the side seal further outboard, we were able = to=20 increase the (ported) intake opening timing versus the earlier = rotors -- it=20 may be too much ??? (does not seem likely)

Running the rotors = with=20 the angle cut for intake opening may also be in the above=20 category.

We always set pre-92 side seal clearance at about = .0015 (1=20 1/2 thou). The SMALLEST clearance we could get, using the LONGEST of = the=20 available "pre-sized" RX-8 side seals was about .010 (10 thou), with = the=20 worst on this set of rotors of about .016 (16 thou). This gives a = much lower=20 "sealing" than we like.

Other than the above, at this time we = are not=20 at all sure why the power is less than when using the earlier=20 rotors.

No, we have not done the REAL test -- run the SAME = engine on=20 the dyno, and only swap the rotors (backwards, then normal). That = equals=20 three builds, and three full dyno on-and-offs + dyno sessions.=20


Dave Lemon,
Owner of Mazdatrix,
The dyno = operator and=20 driver of the E/P = car
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