X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 866815 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:23:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3CLMrLw005211 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000801c53fa5$cc4ab910$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:22:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C53F84.44CB6320" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C53F84.44CB6320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dennis, There is no damage I have detected as yet. However, I need to look at = the apex slots because I have the impression that they have a bit of "V" = slope to the sides rather than completely vertical. However, being = blind in one eye does funny things to parallelism, so need to take some = measurements to be certain. Since I was used to two rotors to overcome = when swinging the prop, it sure seemed like the effort was considerably = down by more than 1/2. =20 But, good point, I need to check the entire engine over for any thing = unusually. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Haverlah=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 5:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem Ed- You had spoken of the other rotor not having strong compression after = the safe landing. Have you examined it to see if there is any damage? = If both rotors have some damage - than we need to think more about what = event could damage both within minutes of each other. Dennis H. Ed Anderson wrote: Thanks Steve, I guess anytime you have an engine problem and you and the aircraft = will fly again - its minimal damage. The one rotor is shot, but = otherwise I can't find any other damage - however, I will go back = tomorrow and a bright light and examine it a bit more thoroughly - like = laying a straight edge across the housing inner face to make sure there = are no depressions, etc. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Brooks=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem Ed, Sounds like you really had very little damage, other than to the = one rotor. I'd say that you were quite fortunate all the way around, in = making a safe landing, and finding so little damage. =20 I hope that you are back flying very soon. Steve Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] The Final? Story on the Engine problem Tried to send the below message with 4 photos and it was = rejected as 307K which exceeded the lists 300K limit. So here it is = again with two photos with this e mail and two photos to follow with = the next e mail. Ed Well, folks the Mystery of my apex seal failure may never be = solved completely. But, I can now eliminate the spark plugs as well as = the plastic plenum. The end of the spark plug clears the combustion = chamber even with the washer removed - and no pieces of the porcelain = appear to missing from the plugs. So just don't know what caused the initial seal failure, but the = sequence of events after that is fairly evident. Photos 3 piece Apex shows what remained of one apex seal from = rotor #1, clearly a rather large chuck is missing and could not be = found. But evidence of its passage through the combustion chamber was = left behind. The other two pieces of the broken apex were still in = their slot. Photo Apex Departing Slot clearly shows where the missing piece = of the apex seal bent over the straight edge of its slot when it = departed. Apparently when it left the clearance was getting less and the = departing edge was apparently caught between the lip of the slot and the = rotor housing forming a flatten corner. Photo Apex Scrapes shows that the ejected apex seal piece = probably made it around the chamber a couple of times, one impression = looks to be smaller than the width of the ejected piece - so perhaps it = broke up further in its round. Photo Apex Slot Peened shows that the 2nd apex seal of #1 rotor = that would not move up and down - clear why, now. The departing piece = peened over the slot and froze the seal in its slot. I had to pry the = opposite end of the seal up to the position you see. Overall rotor #1 is shot, although I guess one could have the = slot milled out to 3mm but I'm not inclined to do so. Surprisingly, I could find no damage to either the side housing = or the rotor housing. The rotor housings were used (came with the core) = and looks the same as when I put them on in 2001. The side housings are = new and minimal wear - could not even catch the tip of a dentist took = pick on any of the marks. So what was the initial cause of the apex seal to fail - no = evidence I could find. No indication of FOD other than the broken apex = seal imprints in the rotor. Could have been some thing that just failed = the seal and did no other damage before departing. Before this intake I = had a SS screen mesh placed over the Mazda throttle body I had been = using. Had not yet mounted one to the new Mustang TB as it was not as = easy to do. Don't know if that would have made a difference.=20 I am still puzzled why it took so long if it were a foreign = object to cause the damage. Just one of those things I'll likely never = know. Now the question is what to do next. Someone suggested the 10:1 = rotors of the new Rensis as cheaper and higher compression - I like both = of those features {:>). I'll need to check with Bruce T and see if = there is any merit to that idea. Surprisingly little carbon on the rotors and most was soft not = hard baked - may have been caused a bit by the gobs of fuel I was = forcing through the chambers with no good combustion taking place. But, = certainly no where near as bad as a car engine. That's it for now. Best Regards Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C53F84.44CB6320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dennis,
 
There is no damage I have detected as = yet. =20 However, I need to look at the apex slots because I have the impression = that=20 they have a bit of "V" slope to the sides rather than completely = vertical. =20 However, being blind in one eye does funny things to parallelism, so = need to=20 take some measurements to be certain.  Since I was used to two = rotors to=20 overcome when swinging the prop, it sure seemed like the effort was = considerably=20 down by more than 1/2. 
 
But, good point, I need to check the = entire engine=20 over for any thing unusually. 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 = 5:13=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = Final? Story=20 on the Engine problem

Ed-
You had spoken of the other rotor not having = strong=20 compression after the safe landing.  Have you examined it to see = if there=20 is any damage?  If both rotors have some damage  - than we = need to=20 think more about what event could damage both within minutes of each=20 other.

Dennis H.

Ed Anderson wrote:
Thanks Steve,
 
I guess anytime you have an engine = problem and=20 you and the aircraft will fly again - its minimal damage.  The = one=20 rotor is shot, but otherwise I can't find any other damage - = however, I will=20 go back tomorrow and a bright light and examine it a bit more=20 thoroughly  - like laying a straight edge across the housing = inner face=20 to make sure there are no depressions, etc.
 
Ed
-----=20 Original Message ----- From:=20 Steve=20 Brooks To:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 Sent:=20 Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:20 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem

Ed,
Sounds like you really had very little damage, other than = to the=20 one rotor.  I'd say that you were quite fortunate all the way = around,=20 in making a safe landing, and finding so little damage. =20
I hope that you are back flying very = soon.
 
Steve Brooks
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, = 2005 3:15=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] The Final? Story on the Engine = problem

Tried to send the below message = with 4=20 photos and it was rejected as 307K which exceeded the lists 300K = limit.  So here it is again with  two photos with = this e=20 mail and two photos to follow with the next e mail.
 
Ed
 
 
 
Well, folks the Mystery of my = apex seal=20 failure may never be solved completely.  But, I can now = eliminate=20 the spark plugs as well as the plastic plenum.  The end of = the=20 spark plug clears the combustion chamber even with the washer = removed -=20 and no pieces of the porcelain appear to missing from =  the=20 plugs.
 
So just don't know what caused = the initial=20 seal failure, but the sequence of events after that is fairly=20 evident.
 
Photos 3 piece Apex shows what = remained of=20 one apex seal from rotor #1, clearly a rather large chuck is = missing and=20 could not be found. But evidence of its passage = through the=20 combustion chamber was left behind.   The other two = pieces of=20 the broken apex were still in their slot.
 
Photo  Apex Departing Slot = clearly=20 shows where the missing piece of the apex seal bent over the = straight=20 edge of its slot when it departed. Apparently when it left the = clearance=20 was getting less and the departing edge was apparently caught = between=20 the lip of the slot and the rotor housing forming a flatten=20 corner.
 
Photo Apex Scrapes shows that = the ejected=20 apex seal piece probably  made it around the chamber a = couple of=20 times, one impression looks to be smaller than the width of the = ejected=20 piece - so perhaps it broke up further in its = round.
 
Photo Apex Slot Peened shows = that the 2nd=20 apex seal of #1 rotor that would not move up and down - clear = why,=20 now.  The departing piece peened over the slot and froze = the seal=20 in its slot.  I had to pry the opposite end of the seal up = to the=20 position you see.
 
Overall rotor #1 is shot, = although I guess=20 one could have the slot milled out to 3mm but I'm not inclined = to do=20 so.
 
Surprisingly, I could find no = damage to=20 either the side housing or the rotor housing.  The rotor = housings=20 were used (came with the core) and looks the same as when I put = them on=20 in 2001.  The side housings are new and minimal wear = - could=20 not even catch the tip of a dentist took pick on any of the=20 marks.
 
So what was the initial = cause of the=20 apex seal to fail - no evidence I could find.  No = indication of FOD=20 other than the broken apex seal imprints in the rotor.  = Could have=20 been some thing that just failed the seal and did no other = damage before=20 departing. Before this intake I had a SS screen mesh placed over = the=20 Mazda throttle body I had been using.  Had not yet mounted = one to=20 the new Mustang TB as it was not as easy to do.  Don't know = if that=20 would have made a difference.
 
I am still puzzled why it took = so long if=20 it were a foreign object to cause the damage.  Just one of = those=20 things I'll likely never know.
 
Now the question is what to do = next. =20 Someone suggested the 10:1 rotors of the new Rensis as cheaper = and=20 higher compression - I like both of those features = {:>).  I'll=20 need to check with Bruce T and see if there is any merit to that = idea.
 
Surprisingly little carbon on = the rotors=20 and most was soft not hard baked - may have been caused a bit by = the=20 gobs of fuel I was forcing through the chambers with no good = combustion=20 taking place.  But, certainly no where near as bad as a car = engine.
 
That's it for now.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
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