X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.93.47.42] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.texas.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 866804 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:15:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.93.47.42; envelope-from=clouduster@austin.rr.com Received: from [10.0.0.99] (cpe-70-113-213-129.austin.res.rr.com [70.113.213.129]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.texas.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j3CLEMeX002403 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:14:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <425C3A0B.4020303@austin.rr.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:13:47 -0500 From: Dennis Haverlah User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050802030702020609050002" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050802030702020609050002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed- You had spoken of the other rotor not having strong compression after the safe landing. Have you examined it to see if there is any damage? If both rotors have some damage - than we need to think more about what event could damage both within minutes of each other. Dennis H. Ed Anderson wrote: > Thanks Steve, > > I guess anytime you have an engine problem and you and the aircraft > will fly again - its minimal damage. The one rotor is shot, but > otherwise I can't find any other damage - however, I will go back > tomorrow and a bright light and examine it a bit more thoroughly - > like laying a straight edge across the housing inner face to make sure > there are no depressions, etc. > > Ed > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Brooks > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:20 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem > > Ed, > Sounds like you really had very little damage, other than to the > one rotor. I'd say that you were quite fortunate all the way > around, in making a safe landing, and finding so little damage. > I hope that you are back flying very soon. > > Steve Brooks > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft > [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:15 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] The Final? Story on the Engine problem > > Tried to send the below message with 4 photos and it was > rejected as 307K which exceeded the lists 300K limit. So here > it is again with two photos with this e mail and two photos > to follow with the next e mail. > > Ed > > > > Well, folks the Mystery of my apex seal failure may never be > solved completely. But, I can now eliminate the spark plugs > as well as the plastic plenum. The end of the spark plug > clears the combustion chamber even with the washer removed - > and no pieces of the porcelain appear to missing from the plugs. > > So just don't know what caused the initial seal failure, but > the sequence of events after that is fairly evident. > > Photos 3 piece Apex shows what remained of one apex seal from > rotor #1, clearly a rather large chuck is missing and could > not be found. But evidence of its passage through the > combustion chamber was left behind. The other two pieces of > the broken apex were still in their slot. > > Photo Apex Departing Slot clearly shows where the missing > piece of the apex seal bent over the straight edge of its slot > when it departed. Apparently when it left the clearance was > getting less and the departing edge was apparently caught > between the lip of the slot and the rotor housing forming a > flatten corner. > > Photo Apex Scrapes shows that the ejected apex seal piece > probably made it around the chamber a couple of times, one > impression looks to be smaller than the width of the ejected > piece - so perhaps it broke up further in its round. > > Photo Apex Slot Peened shows that the 2nd apex seal of #1 > rotor that would not move up and down - clear why, now. The > departing piece peened over the slot and froze the seal in its > slot. I had to pry the opposite end of the seal up to the > position you see. > > Overall rotor #1 is shot, although I guess one could have the > slot milled out to 3mm but I'm not inclined to do so. > > Surprisingly, I could find no damage to either the side > housing or the rotor housing. The rotor housings were used > (came with the core) and looks the same as when I put them on > in 2001. The side housings are new and minimal wear - could > not even catch the tip of a dentist took pick on any of the marks. > > So what was the initial cause of the apex seal to fail - no > evidence I could find. No indication of FOD other than the > broken apex seal imprints in the rotor. Could have been some > thing that just failed the seal and did no other damage before > departing. Before this intake I had a SS screen mesh placed > over the Mazda throttle body I had been using. Had not yet > mounted one to the new Mustang TB as it was not as easy to > do. Don't know if that would have made a difference. > > I am still puzzled why it took so long if it were a foreign > object to cause the damage. Just one of those things I'll > likely never know. > > Now the question is what to do next. Someone suggested the > 10:1 rotors of the new Rensis as cheaper and higher > compression - I like both of those features {:>). I'll need > to check with Bruce T and see if there is any merit to that idea. > > Surprisingly little carbon on the rotors and most was soft not > hard baked - may have been caused a bit by the gobs of fuel I > was forcing through the chambers with no good combustion > taking place. But, certainly no where near as bad as a car > engine. > > That's it for now. > > Best Regards > > Ed > > > > > Ed Anderson > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > Matthews, NC > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > Ed Anderson > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > Matthews, NC > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > --------------050802030702020609050002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed-
You had spoken of the other rotor not having strong compression after the safe landing.  Have you examined it to see if there is any damage?  If both rotors have some damage  - than we need to think more about what event could damage both within minutes of each other.

Dennis H.

Ed Anderson wrote:
Thanks Steve,
 
I guess anytime you have an engine problem and you and the aircraft will fly again - its minimal damage.  The one rotor is shot, but otherwise I can't find any other damage - however, I will go back tomorrow and a bright light and examine it a bit more thoroughly  - like laying a straight edge across the housing inner face to make sure there are no depressions, etc.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Final? Story on the Engine problem

Ed,
Sounds like you really had very little damage, other than to the one rotor.  I'd say that you were quite fortunate all the way around, in making a safe landing, and finding so little damage. 
I hope that you are back flying very soon.
 
Steve Brooks
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] The Final? Story on the Engine problem

Tried to send the below message with 4 photos and it was rejected as 307K which exceeded the lists 300K limit.  So here it is again with  two photos with this e mail and two photos to follow with the next e mail.
 
Ed
 
 
 
Well, folks the Mystery of my apex seal failure may never be solved completely.  But, I can now eliminate the spark plugs as well as the plastic plenum.  The end of the spark plug clears the combustion chamber even with the washer removed - and no pieces of the porcelain appear to missing from  the plugs.
 
So just don't know what caused the initial seal failure, but the sequence of events after that is fairly evident.
 
Photos 3 piece Apex shows what remained of one apex seal from rotor #1, clearly a rather large chuck is missing and could not be found. But evidence of its passage through the combustion chamber was left behind.   The other two pieces of the broken apex were still in their slot.
 
Photo  Apex Departing Slot clearly shows where the missing piece of the apex seal bent over the straight edge of its slot when it departed. Apparently when it left the clearance was getting less and the departing edge was apparently caught between the lip of the slot and the rotor housing forming a flatten corner.
 
Photo Apex Scrapes shows that the ejected apex seal piece probably  made it around the chamber a couple of times, one impression looks to be smaller than the width of the ejected piece - so perhaps it broke up further in its round.
 
Photo Apex Slot Peened shows that the 2nd apex seal of #1 rotor that would not move up and down - clear why, now.  The departing piece peened over the slot and froze the seal in its slot.  I had to pry the opposite end of the seal up to the position you see.
 
Overall rotor #1 is shot, although I guess one could have the slot milled out to 3mm but I'm not inclined to do so.
 
Surprisingly, I could find no damage to either the side housing or the rotor housing.  The rotor housings were used (came with the core) and looks the same as when I put them on in 2001.  The side housings are new and minimal wear - could not even catch the tip of a dentist took pick on any of the marks.
 
So what was the initial cause of the apex seal to fail - no evidence I could find.  No indication of FOD other than the broken apex seal imprints in the rotor.  Could have been some thing that just failed the seal and did no other damage before departing. Before this intake I had a SS screen mesh placed over the Mazda throttle body I had been using.  Had not yet mounted one to the new Mustang TB as it was not as easy to do.  Don't know if that would have made a difference.
 
I am still puzzled why it took so long if it were a foreign object to cause the damage.  Just one of those things I'll likely never know.
 
Now the question is what to do next.  Someone suggested the 10:1 rotors of the new Rensis as cheaper and higher compression - I like both of those features {:>).  I'll need to check with Bruce T and see if there is any merit to that idea.
 
Surprisingly little carbon on the rotors and most was soft not hard baked - may have been caused a bit by the gobs of fuel I was forcing through the chambers with no good combustion taking place.  But, certainly no where near as bad as a car engine.
 
That's it for now.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
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