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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:50:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Air Cleaners-Screens (was Re: Latest on the Motor Trouble
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From: Jerry Hey <jerryhey@earthlink.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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I think it would be a good idea to have an access panel on any cold air  
box fed by unfiltered ram air  so that accumulated debris can be  
cleaned out before it is ingested.  It also might be possible to build  
some sort of trap to separate the unwanted stuff from the air.  Jerry


On Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 12:32 PM, David Carter wrote:

> "Conventional wisdom" is - every engine should have a filter to keep  
> sand
> (and other hard parts) out of engine.
>     -  This comes up occasionally on the RV-list.
>     -  I believe Mooney has a "bypass-the-filter" for use when  
> airborne to
> eliminate the slight drop in manifold pressure caused by the filter's
> restriction to airflow.  To me, that is the ideal system - have to  
> have a
> filter on the ground; don't need it when airborne if you want to race  
> or go
> high and/or fast.  Dry paper filters drop 1 inch Hg, oiled foam filers  
> drop
> at least 2 inches - dry is better, therefore.
>
> Back in 1964 an Explorer Scout post I was assisting with at George  
> AFB, CA,
> bought an old truck with dump bed - had a 6 cylinder flat head engine.
> After overhauling it, we used it to go out to Cuddyback Range (when  
> closed!)
> and picked up "darts" (the air-to-air gunnery targets towed behind a  
> fighter
> for other fighters to shoot at).  We'd use an axe to cut off the  
> honeycomb
> wings and salvage the aluminum "backbone" and other metal parts, then  
> sell
> for scrap as a fund raiser.
>     -  Well, we overhauled the engine as soon as we bought the truck,  
> then
> went to the desert range a few times.  Wasn't long before the engine  
> wasn't
> running so well - pulled the head and found lots of sand grains  
> smashed into
> the valve seats and on the mating valve faces - we'd run the truck in  
> the
> desert without a filter!
>
> OK, so we don't have valves in a rotary, but we have "apex seals" that  
> hate
> foreign matter interference . . . . . This is similar to people who fly
> carbureted engines with no "carb heat" system installed - just waiting  
> for
> the "right circumstances". . . . .
>
> Ed, I recently had a valve seat disintegrate in one of my Ford Escorts  
> -
> blew hard chunks out both the intake and exhaust - shook out parts  
> from the
> catalytic converter, then, after reassebling the engine and cranking,  
> got
> the "loud tapping noises" again (more hard parts on top of piston) and  
> found
> LOTS of stuff kicked back into the INTAKE manifold, mostly up in the  
> TOP LOG
> from which the 4 runners came down to the intake port flanges.  When I  
> first
> reassembled the engine, I only checked the lower part of the manifold,  
> the
> holes that mate up to the head - there was a bit of stuff there but I  
> never
> suspected it would blow up thru the runners into the top log.
>     -  Therefore, suggest you remove your intake system and examine for
> trash.  I had to take my manifold to the local car wash and use hi  
> pressure
> to blow it clean.
>
> David Carter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:22 AM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Latest on the Motor Trouble
>
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
> I do not have an air cleaner nor screen on this intake - had a screen  
> on my
> previous intake.  I guess its always possible for a prop to blow FOD  
> into my
> oil cooler inlet (right up under the spinner) - but unlikely.  But,  
> clearly
> something took out the apex seals on #1, no question about that when  
> one of
> them is in three pieces.  Its beginning to look less likely that the  
> spark
> plugs were responsible - just a coincident on the timing.  Hopefully  
> I'll
> find out this morning.  I had though that perhaps pieces of the plastic
> plenum might have done the job - but all pieces accounted for.
>
> I need to examine my intake manifold just to see whether any  
> incriminating
> evidence might be laying in it.  Hopefully by noon, I should know the
> answer.
>
> Ed
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Paul
>   To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>   Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:54 PM
>   Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Latest on the Motor Trouble
>
>
>   Hey, Ed....so sorry to hear about your engine misfortune (as well as  
> the
> washing machine).  Do you have an air cleaner?  Is there any  
> possiblity your
> prop could have blown loose rock/pebbles or FOD into your intake?   
> Obviously
> you will find out soon...just speculating and curious about any filter  
> or
> screen you may have on your intake system. Good luck with the engine
> rebuild....we will miss your flying reports for a while, but hopefully  
> just
> for a short while.  Paul Conner
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Ed Anderson
>     To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>     Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 6:57 PM
>     Subject: [FlyRotary] Latest on the Motor Trouble
>
>
>     Latest status on the engine problem:
>
>     Unfortunately a breakdown in one of the households most important
> appliances ( in the wife's view), i.e. - the washing machine precluded  
> me
> getting the engine unbuttoned today.  Got as far as getting the  
> flywheel nut
> off when got side tracked.
>
>     However, here are some interesting tidbits.  Al told me he could  
> not
> find an NGK B9EQV - odd I thought- since I purchased some.  Well when I
> opened up the tool box there as plain as day was B9EGV - the CORRECT  
> PLUG -
> I am beginning to feel like I am in the twilight zone.  All four -all  
> are
> the B9EGV!
>
>     So the right plug - so how come the problem or was it all an  
> figment of
> my troubled mind?
>
>     No figment about the problem, I could better examine the apex seals
> through the exhaust with a bright light.  I found one apex seal  
> shattered
> into three pieces, one stuck down as if springs are broken and one  
> which
> appears to move normally in its slot, but has nicks.  Well as we all  
> know
> when two of the apex seals are gone on a rotor they might as well all  
> three
> be gone.
>
>     Now here is where it gets a bit more spooky - I took one of the  
> B9EGV
> plugs and screw them into an 86 NA rotor housing (thanks for the  
> suggestion,
> George - down under) I have laying around.  I then measured from the  
> inside
> of the housing to the ground electrode of the plug - hold onto your  
> hats -
> it measured 7.5 mm!  I could be off by a mm but certainly places the
> electrode no where close to the chamber (relative speaking).
>
>     So either the 91 turbo housings (will find out tomorrow) have  
> shorter
> sparkplug holes OR the plugs had nothing to do with the problem.   
> Possibly
> some other FOD item - but I use no nuts or screws any place in the  
> induction
> system that would cause them to fall off into the runners.
>     I've already reported that the next most likely candidate - pieces  
> of
> the plastic plenum were a negative as all pieces are still in place.
>
>     I really hate to end the day without getting the bottom of this  
> problem,
> but just too beat to tackle it.  Sitting here in front of the computer  
> with
> a cool brew - which is something I don't ever recall doing before (not  
> the
> drinking, and not the computer - but both together!)
>
>     I am taking photos as I disassemble the engine.  It took me 15  
> minutes
> once I had the engine on the work stand to get Tracy's gearbox, damper
> plate, flex plate and flywheel nut off.  Next comes the flex plate, my
> broken-bolt shield and then the 17 tension bolts (guess I better  
> remember to
> put heat shrink on them).
>
>     Anyhow, thanks to all of you who had suggestions, comments or
> condolences conveyed to me.  Appreciate them all and I will keep you
> informed as the disassembly progresses.
>
>
>     Ed
>     Ed Anderson
>     Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>     Matthews, NC
>     eanderson@carolina.rr.com
>
>
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