Return-Path: Received: from imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 725361 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:53:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.64; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from [209.214.45.60] by imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with ESMTP id <20050211195228.IZLK1983.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@[209.214.45.60]> for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:52:28 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.7]); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:52:20 -0600 Message-ID: <03ab01c51073$31a0ea80$3c2dd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] More wild ideas was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: To Paul SOme diagnosis thoughts Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:52:18 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-420D0CF4207D=======" --=======AVGMAIL-420D0CF4207D======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03A8_01C51040.E6E2C5E0" ------=_NextPart_000_03A8_01C51040.E6E2C5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Leon...I had 28 gallons of fuel in the left tank, and only 20 = gallons in the right tank. (I was using the left tank). I didn't fuel it = completely, as I hadn't planned on going that far. Fuel filter = screen looked fine, and I drained some fuel from each tank and from the = gascolator....no visible water in the glass jar. I will double check all = electrical connections next, but the way the engine sounded, it just = seemed to be fuel starved. It runs fine now with normal water = temperatures. My fuel pumps are around 12 inches lower than my sump = tank, and the gascolator is the lowest point in the fuel system, and the = fuel pumps are about 3 inches above the gascolator/filter, so they do = have to pull fuel uphill, but only about 3 inches, in a hose that is = about 6 inches long. (In other words, the fuel pumps are about 3 inches = above the gascolator and 6 inches away from the gascolator). =20 One final thought.....my aluminum sump tank in not vented. Seems we = discussed this at length when I was building this thing, and since the = overflow is pumped into the sump tank, the fuel might just be pumped = right out of the vent. Take care. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leon=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] More wild ideas was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: To Paul = SOme diagnosis thoughts=20 Yo Paul, OK, so it WASN'T the ECU! Not electrical? I assume by now you have = checked all electrical connections?? Not the fuel filter etc? No water = in the fuel?? Vapour lock with EFI is pretty hard to get. At 3 Bar pressure, the = EFI pumps will see to that (as long as they don't have to suck uphill). = The only place you could get a vapour lock is between the tank(s) and = the lift pump, if you have one. As I have no idea how your fuel is = plumbed, I can only make wild guesses. So, ... SILLY question. How much fuel was actually in the tanks?? = Some aircraft are notorious for not being able to access a fair = percentage of what is left in the tanks at unusual attitudes. ALL is OK = in level flight, but on rotation, or a steep (unbalanced) bank or side = slip, the tank pickups are uncovered. I've also come across problems = of highly inaccurate fuel guage(s). The only sure way is to dip the = tank. I seem to remember reading about a similar incident in a "Crash = Comic" just recently. Even the pros screw up occasionally (e.g., = Boeing 307 Stratosubmarine!).=20 Got to get to the bottom of this - you are too good a pilot and too = nice a bloke to needlessly have a prang. Cheers mate, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 5:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To Paul SOme diagnosis thoughts was Re: = [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning Hi, Leon....I appologize for being late in responding....I haven't = had a chance to get on the computer. Yes, I ran the engine yesterday. = After inspecting the spark plugs (looked like new with no evidence of = rich soot or burned porcelain), I fired it up and it ran great. Good = idle, midrange, and 5300 rpm static instead of my usual 5200 rpm. I ran = it WOT until the temps finally got so high that I had to shut it down = and watch the antifreeze burp out of the overflow on the surge tank. = Set up a cooling fan for a few minutes, then restarted the engine and = temps came down right away with the circulating of the water/antifreeze = through the engine and radiator.=20 As I mentioned in my previous post, I am higly suspect that my = problem was vapor lock/heat related due to the two close together WOT = engine runs I performed just prior to takeoff. Normally, I always take = off with temps around 160 to 180, not 220 or better. My temps normally = come down in the climb, but at only 250 feet, I'm fairly confident I = hadn't gotten much cooling air to the radiator at WOT in the climb. I = will keep you posted. Thanks again for taking the time to help out. = Paul Conner -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 ------=_NextPart_000_03A8_01C51040.E6E2C5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Leon...I had 28 gallons of fuel in = the left=20 tank, and only 20 gallons in the right tank. (I was using the left = tank). I=20 didn't fuel it completely, as I hadn't planned on going that far.=20      Fuel filter screen looked fine, and I drained = some fuel=20 from each tank and from the gascolator....no visible water in the glass = jar. I=20 will double check all electrical connections next, but the way the = engine=20 sounded, it just seemed to be fuel starved. It runs fine now with normal = water=20 temperatures.  My fuel pumps are around 12 inches lower than my = sump tank,=20 and the gascolator is the lowest point in the fuel system, and the fuel = pumps=20 are about 3 inches above the gascolator/filter, so they do have to pull = fuel=20 uphill, but only about 3 inches, in a hose that is about 6 inches long. = (In=20 other words, the fuel pumps are about 3 inches above the gascolator and = 6 inches=20 away from the gascolator).  
    One final = thought.....my=20 aluminum sump tank in not vented. Seems we discussed this at length when = I was=20 building this thing, and since the overflow is pumped into the sump = tank, the=20 fuel might just be pumped right out of the vent. Take care. Paul=20 Conner
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Leon
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 = 1:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] More wild = ideas was=20 Re: [FlyRotary] Re: To Paul SOme diagnosis thoughts

Yo Paul,
 
OK,  so it WASN'T the ECU!  = Not=20 electrical?  I assume by now you have checked all electrical=20 connections??  Not the fuel filter etc?  No water in the=20 fuel??
 
Vapour lock with EFI is pretty hard = to get. =20 At 3 Bar pressure,  the EFI pumps will see to that (as long as = they don't=20 have to suck uphill).  The only place you could get a vapour lock = is=20 between the tank(s) and the lift pump,  if you have one.  As = I have=20 no idea how your fuel is plumbed,  I can only make wild=20 guesses.
 
So, ... SILLY question.  How = much fuel was=20 actually in the tanks??  Some aircraft are notorious for not = being able=20 to access a fair percentage of what is left in the tanks at unusual=20 attitudes.  ALL is OK in level flight,  but on = rotation, =20 or a steep (unbalanced) bank or side slip,   the tank = pickups are=20 uncovered.  I've also come across problems of highly inaccurate = fuel=20 guage(s).  The only sure way is to dip the tank. I seem to = remember=20 reading about a similar incident in a "Crash Comic" just = recently.  Even=20 the pros screw up occasionally (e.g.,  Boeing 307=20 Stratosubmarine!). 
 
Got to get to the bottom of this - = you are too=20 good a pilot and too nice a bloke to needlessly have a = prang.
 
Cheers mate,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, February 12, = 2005 5:21=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To = Paul SOme=20 diagnosis thoughts was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and = Tuning

Hi, Leon....I appologize for being = late in=20 responding....I haven't had a chance to get on the computer.  = Yes, I=20 ran the engine yesterday. After inspecting the spark plugs (looked = like new=20 with no evidence of rich soot or burned porcelain), I fired it up = and it ran=20 great. Good idle, midrange, and 5300 rpm static instead of my usual = 5200=20 rpm. I ran it WOT until the temps finally got so high that I had to = shut it=20 down and watch the antifreeze burp out of the overflow on the surge=20 tank.  Set up a cooling fan for a few minutes, then restarted = the=20 engine and temps came down right away with the circulating of the=20 water/antifreeze through the engine and radiator.
     As I = mentioned in my=20 previous post, I am higly suspect that my problem was vapor = lock/heat=20 related due to the two close together WOT engine runs I performed = just prior=20 to takeoff. Normally, I always take off with temps around 160 to = 180, not=20 220 or better. My temps normally come down in the climb, but at only = 250=20 feet, I'm fairly confident I hadn't gotten much cooling air to the = radiator=20 at WOT in the climb.  I will keep you posted. Thanks again for = taking=20 the time to help out.  Paul Conner
 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release = Date:=20 2/10/2005
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