Return-Path: Received: from imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 725203 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:22:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.68; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from [209.214.45.60] by imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with ESMTP id <20050211182130.SAYO1977.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@[209.214.45.60]> for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:21:30 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.7]); Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:21:21 -0600 Message-ID: <009601c51066$7a75db60$3c2dd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] To Paul SOme diagnosis thoughts was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:21:17 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-420CF7A13D16=======" --=======AVGMAIL-420CF7A13D16======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0093_01C51034.2FAE19D0" ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C51034.2FAE19D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Leon....I appologize for being late in responding....I haven't had a = chance to get on the computer. Yes, I ran the engine yesterday. After = inspecting the spark plugs (looked like new with no evidence of rich = soot or burned porcelain), I fired it up and it ran great. Good idle, = midrange, and 5300 rpm static instead of my usual 5200 rpm. I ran it WOT = until the temps finally got so high that I had to shut it down and watch = the antifreeze burp out of the overflow on the surge tank. Set up a = cooling fan for a few minutes, then restarted the engine and temps came = down right away with the circulating of the water/antifreeze through the = engine and radiator.=20 As I mentioned in my previous post, I am higly suspect that my = problem was vapor lock/heat related due to the two close together WOT = engine runs I performed just prior to takeoff. Normally, I always take = off with temps around 160 to 180, not 220 or better. My temps normally = come down in the climb, but at only 250 feet, I'm fairly confident I = hadn't gotten much cooling air to the radiator at WOT in the climb. I = will keep you posted. Thanks again for taking the time to help out. = Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leon=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:07 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] To Paul SOme diagnosis thoughts was Re: = [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning Hi Paul, I've just been thinking. (A most dangerous exercise for me @ 4:30 am = in the morning!). As I mentioned previously, I don't think the "fan = out" had anything to do with the ECU itself. Reading your posts, it = looks like you have got a bit of a handle on tuning anyway, with = mention of running the aircraft up against your van, and fiddling with = the mixture while watching the EGT etc. I assume you have disabled the = rev limiter function on the Microtech?? From what you tell me, it looks like it's a nightmare to remove the = engine. Seeing you have flown successfully for over 9 hours already, = then the engine obviously has sufficient grunt to keep the aircraft = airbourne. Probably a waste of time & money getting this engione = dyno'd. So if you are having another engine assembled with high comp rotors, = I'd wait until then. There is no reason why you couldn't leave the = engine plate on the engine though. From what I have seen, the plate is = mounted onto the frame with just 4 mounts?? If you find a friendly = engine dyno place, then do get the new engine dyno'd. You will then = know exactly how many BHP the engine has at what RPM, and can then = probably get the prop size right first go, and as a bonus, you will = have the confience in knowing that the mixtures are correct. Anyway, back to the present conundrum. Many many years ago, when = teaching me to diagonse engine faults, an old mentor once said to me = that if an engine has approximately the right amount of fuel, and a = decent fat spark at approximately the right time, then an engine will = run and produce a reasonable amount of power - unless there is something = mechanical wrong with the engine itself. =20 Rotaries are particularly forgiving in that they will run on a pretty = wide mixture range, and are relatively insensitive to timing, (except = under boosted conditions), and there are only three basic things that = will kill a rotary mechanically - loss of oil (I can see Rusty nodding = his head!), loss of coolant, or swallowing something solid. The trick is to now systematically work down through your "fan out" = episode to see why it quit. Whatever you do, DON'T jump to any = conclusions. Assume nothing, and check everything. Have you tried to = start it since? Will it run?? Basically, when I have a problem like = this, the first thing I check is ignition, (because it's easy, and = immediately eliminates 50% of the options if I get a jolt from a coil = lead!!). I know this might sound facile, but obviously if there is no spark, = you go and find out why. A blown fuse, dud relay, loose wire = somewhere, faulty switch etc. If you do have spark, then the problem = is most likely fuel supply. Fuel tank selector first (My mate Ed turned = his RV into a glider one time simply because he didn't have any fuel in = one of his tanks!). =20 I also know of a certain experienced aerobatic pilot over here who is = now in a wheelchair because he didn't have the fuel selector positively = set to the correct tank. The selector was half way between tanks, and = while it had enough fuel supply to do the "run-up", it didn't flow = enough fuel for WOT at take-off. The ineveitable, happened, the = engine quit around 200 ft, he tried to turn back, it stalled and fell = on it's tail, and he's now in a wheelchair. He also totalled a really = nice aircraft. If there IS fuel in the tank (yeah, yeah, ... I know, I know, ... = but it's REALLY easy to check, and it HAS happened before - remember = the historic Boeing 307 Stratoliner that became a submarine in Elliot = Bay Seattle?? - so even the pros are not immune to this!!), and the = tank selector is correctly selected, then filters, then water in the = fuel, then fuel pressure, tank vents, crimped hoses etc. It's a = bit like a game of 20 questions (Ever played "Animal, Vegetable or = Mineral"??). The Name of this game is "Igniton, Fuel, or Mechanical". = You try to eliminate about half of the causes at each step, commencing = with the easiest options. So don't give up on the EFI just yet. I can tell you that having = played with carburettors for 30+ years, I prefer EFI anyday. It's a = mindset thing. Carburettors also have their downsides, and are subject = to all the same fuel supply issues as EFI. (Fuel quality, water in the = fuel, filters, pumps, lines, tanks etc) One major one that is a = rarity with EFI is flooding. Ask poor Ken Welter. "Kentucky Fried" his = Coot to a crisp some time ago. =20 Anyway, that's my little velvet bag full of Downunder pearls for = today. Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To Paul Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI = and Tuning Hi, Leon thanks for taking the time to go into such detail (as is = customary for you) regarding suggestions for tuning my engine, etc. I = took no offense with your comments. I would never be upset that someone = is looking out for me. Removing the engine, coils, ECU, handset, = exhaust, etc would be labor intensive, as the coils are mounted on the = firewall, the wiring for the ignition and handset go all the way from = the firewall to the instrument panel in a narrow center console that = took hours to "snake" the wires through, (engine is in the rear, and = panel is in the front on a pusher) the handset is hard-mounted to the = instrument panel, and the engine is mounted with an aluminum plate = sandwiched between the oil pan and block, so removal would require = reassembling the pan, shortening the oil pickup tube so that I could = install the pan without the 1/2" thick aluminum spacer, my water pump = has -16 AN fittings welded to it, so the dyno tuner could not use = radiator hoses, and a host of other tasks, which while not impossible, = are very time consuming to say the least. I would gladly pay a lot of = money for someone to do it on site. (mobile tuners). =20 As far as the fuel tank debris is concerned, that is a well = known fact amongst the canard community. I am fortunate that my fuel = strakes are different from other fiberglass canards, in that they are = already completely formed by the factory, (a top and bottom), with fuel = tank openings already installed prior to installing them, so there is no = drilling, sanding or fabricating, just glassing the top and bottom = together on the fuselage, and that is all done on the outside of the = fuel tanks. I still, however check my fuel filter screen, just in case. = So far, nothing.=20 Thanks again for all of your valued input and suggestions. I = have not totally given up on the MicroTech....just considering my = alternatives, and as they say, it costs nothing to do your homework. = Yes, I was lucky to get the aircraft (and myself) safely back to Earth = in one piece. I don't care to repeat that excercise any time soon....I = am going to pull the spark plugs today and take a good look at them, and = start my trouble shooting expedition. Take care, and thanks again for = your valued input. Hey....if you'd like a mini vacation in the states, = we'd be happy to put you up and buy you steak and lobster.... Paul, I'm so confused, Conner -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C51034.2FAE19D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Leon....I appologize for being late = in=20 responding....I haven't had a chance to get on the computer.  Yes, = I ran=20 the engine yesterday. After inspecting the spark plugs (looked like new = with no=20 evidence of rich soot or burned porcelain), I fired it up and it ran = great. Good=20 idle, midrange, and 5300 rpm static instead of my usual 5200 rpm. I ran = it WOT=20 until the temps finally got so high that I had to shut it down and watch = the=20 antifreeze burp out of the overflow on the surge tank.  Set up a = cooling=20 fan for a few minutes, then restarted the engine and temps came down = right away=20 with the circulating of the water/antifreeze through the engine and = radiator.=20
     As I mentioned = in my=20 previous post, I am higly suspect that my problem was vapor lock/heat = related=20 due to the two close together WOT engine runs I performed just prior to = takeoff.=20 Normally, I always take off with temps around 160 to 180, not 220 or = better. My=20 temps normally come down in the climb, but at only 250 feet, I'm fairly=20 confident I hadn't gotten much cooling air to the radiator at WOT in the = climb.  I will keep you posted. Thanks again for taking the time to = help=20 out.  Paul Conner
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Leon
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, = 2005 1:07=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] To Paul = SOme=20 diagnosis thoughts was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and = Tuning

Hi Paul,
 
I've just been thinking.  (A = most dangerous=20 exercise for me @ 4:30 am in the morning!).  As I mentioned=20 previously,  I don't think the "fan out" had anything to do with = the ECU=20 itself.  Reading your posts,  it looks like you have got a = bit of a=20 handle on tuning anyway,  with mention of running = the aircraft up=20 against your van,  and fiddling with the mixture while watching = the EGT=20 etc.  I assume you have disabled the rev limiter function on the=20 Microtech??
 
From what you tell me,  it looks = like it's a=20 nightmare to remove the engine.  Seeing you have flown = successfully for=20 over 9 hours already,  then the engine obviously = has sufficient=20 grunt to keep the aircraft airbourne.  Probably a waste of time = &=20 money getting this engione dyno'd.
 
So if you are having another engine = assembled=20 with high comp rotors,  I'd wait until then.  There is no = reason why=20 you couldn't leave the engine plate on the engine though.  From = what I=20 have seen,  the plate is mounted onto the frame with just 4=20 mounts??  If you find a friendly engine dyno place,  then do = get the=20 new engine dyno'd.  You will then know exactly how many BHP the = engine=20 has at what RPM,  and can then probably get the prop size right = first=20 go,  and as a bonus,  you will have the confience in knowing = that=20 the mixtures are correct.
 
Anyway,  back to the present=20 conundrum.  Many many years ago,  when teaching me to = diagonse=20 engine faults,  an old mentor once said to me that if an engine = has=20 approximately the right amount of fuel,  and a decent fat spark = at=20 approximately the right time,  then an engine will run and = produce a=20 reasonable amount of power - unless there is something mechanical = wrong with=20 the engine itself.  
 
Rotaries are particularly forgiving = in that they=20 will run on a pretty wide mixture range,  and are relatively = insensitive=20 to timing,  (except under boosted conditions),  and there = are only=20 three basic things that will kill a rotary mechanically - loss of oil = (I can=20 see Rusty nodding his head!),  loss of coolant,  or = swallowing=20 something solid.
 
The trick is to now systematically = work down=20 through your "fan out" episode to see why it quit.  Whatever you=20 do,  DON'T jump to any conclusions. Assume nothing,  = and check=20 everything.  Have you tried to start it since?  Will it = run?? =20 Basically,  when I have a problem like this,  the first = thing I=20 check is ignition,  (because it's easy,  and immediately = eliminates=20 50% of the options if I get a jolt from a coil lead!!).
 
I know this might sound facile,  = but=20 obviously if there is no spark,  you go and find out why. A = blown=20 fuse,  dud relay,  loose wire somewhere,  faulty = switch =20 etc.  If you do have spark, then the problem is most likely = fuel=20 supply.  Fuel tank selector first (My mate Ed turned his RV = into a=20 glider one time simply because he didn't have any fuel in one of his=20 tanks!). 
 
I also know of a certain experienced = aerobatic=20 pilot over here who is now in a wheelchair because he didn't have = the=20 fuel selector positively set to the correct tank.  The selector = was half=20 way between tanks,  and while it had enough fuel supply to do the = "run-up",  it didn't flow enough fuel for WOT  at = take-off. =20 The ineveitable,  happened,  the engine quit around 200 ft, = he tried=20 to turn back,  it stalled and fell on it's tail,  and he's = now in a=20 wheelchair.  He also totalled a really nice = aircraft.
 
If there IS fuel in the tank=20 (yeah, yeah, ... I know,  I know, ...  but it's = REALLY=20 easy to check,  and it HAS happened before - remember = the=20 historic Boeing 307 Stratoliner that became a submarine in = Elliot=20 Bay Seattle?? - so even the pros are not immune to this!!),  and = the tank=20 selector is correctly selected,  then filters,  then water in the fuel,  then fuel = pressure,  tank=20 vents,  crimped hoses  etc.    It's = a bit=20 like a game of 20 questions (Ever played "Animal,  Vegetable or=20 Mineral"??).  The Name of this game is "Igniton,  = Fuel,  or=20 Mechanical".  You try to eliminate about half of the causes at = each=20 step,  commencing with the easiest options.
 
So don't give up on the EFI just = yet.  I can=20 tell you that having played with carburettors for 30+ years,  I = prefer=20 EFI anyday. It's a mindset thing.  Carburettors also = have their=20 downsides,  and are subject to all the same fuel supply issues as = EFI.  (Fuel quality,  water in the fuel, filters,  = pumps, =20 lines,  tanks etc)  One major one that is a rarity with EFI = is=20 flooding.  Ask poor Ken Welter.  "Kentucky Fried" his Coot = to a=20 crisp some time ago. 
 
Anyway,  that's my little velvet = bag full of=20 Downunder pearls for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, February 10, = 2005 2:12=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To = Paul Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning

Hi, Leon thanks for taking the time = to go into=20 such detail (as is customary for you) regarding suggestions for = tuning my=20 engine, etc. I took no offense with your comments. = I would=20 never be upset that someone is looking out for me.  Removing = the=20 engine, coils, ECU, handset, exhaust, etc would be labor intensive, = as the=20 coils are mounted on the firewall, the wiring for the ignition and = handset=20 go all the way from the firewall to the instrument panel in a narrow = center=20 console that took hours to "snake" the wires through, (engine is in = the=20 rear, and panel is in the front on a pusher) the handset is=20 hard-mounted to the instrument panel, and the engine is mounted with = an=20 aluminum plate sandwiched between the oil pan and block, so removal = would=20 require reassembling the pan, shortening the oil pickup tube so that = I could=20 install the pan without the 1/2" thick aluminum spacer, my water = pump has=20 -16 AN fittings welded to it, so the dyno tuner could not use = radiator=20 hoses, and a host of other tasks, which while not impossible, are = very time=20 consuming to say the least.  I would gladly pay a lot of money = for=20 someone to do it on site. (mobile tuners). 
     As far as = the fuel=20 tank debris is concerned, that is a well known fact amongst the = canard=20 community.  I am fortunate that my fuel strakes are different = from=20 other fiberglass canards, in that they are already completely formed = by the=20 factory, (a top and bottom), with fuel tank openings already = installed prior=20 to installing them, so there is no drilling, sanding or fabricating, = just=20 glassing the top and bottom together on the fuselage, and that is = all done=20 on the outside of the fuel tanks. I still, however check my fuel = filter=20 screen, just in case. So far, nothing.
     Thanks = again for all=20 of your valued input and suggestions.  I have not totally given = up on=20 the MicroTech....just considering my alternatives, and as they say, = it costs=20 nothing to do your homework.  Yes, I was lucky to get the = aircraft (and=20 myself) safely back to Earth in one piece. I don't care to repeat = that=20 excercise any time soon....I am going to pull the spark plugs today = and take=20 a good look at them, and start my trouble shooting expedition.  = Take=20 care, and thanks again for your valued input.  Hey....if you'd = like a=20 mini vacation in the states, we'd be happy to put you up and buy you = steak=20 and lobster....
      = Paul, I'm so=20 confused, Conner

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release = Date:=20 2/7/2005
------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C51034.2FAE19D0-- --=======AVGMAIL-420CF7A13D16======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 --=======AVGMAIL-420CF7A13D16=======--