Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 723473 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:22:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j1AELqbo010282 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:21:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003701c50f7b$df6fd750$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P port intake Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:21:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C50F51.F667C2D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C50F51.F667C2D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, Its really fascinating (to me) the complexities of what goes on in = an intake - especially with the rotary. You would be interested in the Mazda Dynamic Effect Intake (DEI). There = those Mazda engineers actually use the large magnitude pulse created in = the intake by the expelling of residue exhaust gas to improve = performance (when as you suggested, it would seem likely that it would = hinder performance). Basically, They send the large magnitude pulse = created by the opening of the intake (and caused by the sudden bursting = out of the exhaust residue into the intake) port of one rotor though the = interconnected intake to the intake of the second rotor. IF the timing = is correct (rpm, porting and runner length are primary factors) then = when the pulse arrives at the second port - it will arrive just as the = port is closing on its compression stroke. Normally approx. 20% of the = intake charge already sucked into the combustion chamber is pushed back = out by the compressing rotor upstroke before the port closes - commonly = called "reversion". =20 In any case, when this high magnitude pulse arrives at the other rotor, = its dynamic energy translates into a significant increase in local manifold pressure. This increase is sufficient to over come most of the = reversion effect (provided the timing is correct) and therefore you = retain approx 15% of the 20% of the charge that would normally be lost. = The Mazda performance charts showed a 15% improvement in HP at 6000 rpm = using this effect. There are two induction processes that occur and it can get confusing. = There is the macroscopic movement of the airmass caused by the pressure = differential as the ports open and close and there is the Finite = Amplitude Wave (FAW) pulses. The FAW pulse travel at the speed of sound = and while of short duration can produce pressure in the vicinity of = 10-15 psi. They occur in both the intake and exhaust. They can either = assist the inflow of air or oppose it (and do both at differing rpms). = This is one reason why so frequently what would appear to be a good = intake design does not work as expected. The FAW pulse interact with = each other and the walls of the intake unlike sound waves and undergo = transformations depending on what they encounter. Its only fairly = recently that programs and home computers have reached the stage that = permits their analysis on anything other than a main frame. But, while there is no doubt that anything such as exhaust gas that gets = ingested reduces the amount of power producing mixture, its amazing how = the Mazda engineers turned what could have been a detriment into an = asset. But, if you have overlaps of intake and exhaust ports (like the = 13B or a PP13B ) you will always have some exhaust gas in the intake at = some rpm. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:16 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P port intake That is interesting Ed. Just thinking about it and now it would seem = that the expelled residue would be the first thing that got sucked back = thru a dedicated runner, also having a negative effect.=20 Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Tom, One reason that Jerry would not want to do that is that there is = overlap between intake and exhaust. That means while one rotor is = trying to suck air in its intake port - the intake port of the other = rotor may be expelling some residue exhaust gas out its intake and = opposing any incoming air. I think the engine would certainly run but = I don't think you would develop best power. Now it would probably be a = different story with the Renesis which by moving the exhaust ports to = the side housings has eliminate the exhaust/intake overlap. FWIW Ed A=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P port intake Jerry,=20 Since only one rotor chamber is drawing fuel/air at any given = time, why would you not feed them both from a single throttle body? Tom Jerry Hey wrote: George, originally I was going to hook up with a piece of hose = over the=20 butted pieces with a couple of hose clamps. That is how I will = attach=20 the other end at the throttle bodies. But, we have been = considering=20 welding and also building some type of flange. Certainly, for = starters=20 I will use the hose and clamp method. Jerry On Wednesday, February 9, 2005, at 08:43 PM, George Lendich = wrote: > Jerry, > Is that a but weld, OR does the tube go into the bellmouth = end OR a=20 > flange that they both go into. > George ( down under)=20 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Hey > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:35 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P port intake > > Yes, it is 1.61 inches. > > > On Wednesday, February 9, 2005, at 05:39 PM, Tom wrote: > > Jerry, > Do you have an i.d. measurement for the narrow end? > =20 > TIA > Tom > > Jerry Hey wrote: > > Today UPS brought the bell mouths for the P port intake. They = are > three inches o.d. across and have a smooth gradual taper down = to the > runner size ... > > > >=20 > > > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C50F51.F667C2D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom, Its really fascinating (to me) the = complexities of what goes on in an intake - especially with the =20 rotary.
 
You would be interested in the Mazda = Dynamic Effect=20 Intake (DEI).  There those Mazda engineers actually use the large = magnitude=20 pulse created in the intake by the expelling of residue exhaust gas to = improve=20 performance (when as you suggested, it would seem likely that it would = hinder=20 performance).  Basically, They send the large magnitude=20 pulse created by the opening of the intake (and caused by the = sudden=20 bursting out of the exhaust residue into the intake) = port of one=20 rotor though the interconnected intake to the intake of the second = rotor. =20 IF the timing is correct (rpm, porting and runner length are primary = factors)=20 then when the pulse arrives at the second port - it will arrive just as = the port=20 is closing on its compression stroke.  Normally approx. 20% of the = intake=20 charge already sucked into the combustion chamber is pushed back out by = the=20 compressing rotor upstroke before the port closes - commonly called=20 "reversion". 
 
In any case, when this high magnitude = pulse arrives=20 at the other rotor, its dynamic energy translates into a significant = increase in=20 local
manifold pressure.  This increase = is=20 sufficient to over come most of the reversion effect (provided the = timing is=20 correct) and therefore you retain approx 15% of the 20% of the charge = that would=20 normally be lost.  The Mazda performance charts showed a 15% = improvement in=20 HP at 6000 rpm using this effect.
 
There are two induction processes that = occur and it=20 can get confusing.  There is the macroscopic movement of the = airmass caused=20 by the pressure differential as the ports open and close and there is = the Finite=20 Amplitude Wave (FAW) pulses.  The FAW pulse travel at the speed of = sound=20 and while of short duration can produce pressure in the vicinity of = 10-15=20 psi.  They occur in both the intake and exhaust.  They can = either=20 assist the inflow of air or oppose it (and do both at differing = rpms). =20 This is one reason why so frequently what would appear to be a good = intake=20 design does not work as expected.  The FAW pulse interact with each = other=20 and the walls of the intake unlike sound waves and undergo = transformations=20 depending on what they encounter.  Its only fairly recently that = programs=20 and home computers have reached the stage that permits their analysis on = anything other than a main frame.
 
But, while there is no doubt that = anything such as=20 exhaust gas that gets ingested reduces the amount of power producing = mixture,=20 its amazing how the Mazda engineers turned what could have been a = detriment into=20 an asset.  But, if you have overlaps of intake and exhaust ports = (like the=20 13B or a PP13B ) you will always have some exhaust gas in the intake at = some=20 rpm.
 
Ed
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom
Sent: Thursday, February 10, = 2005 2:16=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P port = intake

That is interesting Ed.  Just thinking about it and = now it=20 would seem that the expelled residue would be the first thing that got = sucked=20 back thru a dedicated runner, also having a negative effect. =

Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:=20
Tom,
 
One reason that Jerry would not = want to do that=20 is that there is overlap between intake and exhaust.  That = means while=20 one rotor is trying to suck air in its intake port - the intake port = of the=20 other rotor may be expelling some residue exhaust gas out its intake = and=20 opposing any incoming air.  I think the engine would certainly=20  run but I don't think you would develop best power.  Now=20 it would probably  be a different story with the Renesis = which by=20 moving the exhaust ports to the side housings has eliminate the=20 exhaust/intake overlap.
 
FWIW
 
Ed A
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February = 09, 2005=20 8:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P = port=20 intake

Jerry,
Since only one rotor chamber is drawing fuel/air at any given = time,=20 why would you not feed them both from a single throttle = body?
Tom

Jerry Hey <jerryhey@earthlink.net>= =20 wrote:
George,=20 originally I was going to hook up with a piece of hose over the=20
butted pieces with a couple of hose clamps. That is how I = will=20 attach
the other end at the throttle bodies. But, we have = been=20 considering
welding and also building some type of flange.=20 Certainly, for starters
I will use the hose and clamp = method.=20 Jerry





On Wednesday, February 9, 2005, at = 08:43=20 PM, George Lendich wrote:

> Jerry,
> Is that a = but=20 weld, OR does the tube go into the  bellmouth end OR a =
> flange that they both go into.
> George ( down=20 under) 
>
> ----- Original Message = -----
> From:=20 Jerry Hey
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Sent: = Thursday,=20 February 10, 2005 9:35 AM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P = port=20 intake
>
> Yes, it is 1.61 = inches.
>
>
>=20 On Wednesday, February 9, 2005, at 05:39 PM, Tom = wrote:
>
>=20 Jerry,
> Do you have an i.d. measurement for the narrow=20 end?
>  
> TIA
> Tom
>
> = Jerry Hey=20 wrote:
>
> Today UPS brought = the=20 bell mouths for the P port intake. They are
> three inches = o.d.=20 across and have a smooth gradual taper down to the
> = runner size=20 ...
>
>
>
> =
>
>
>=20 Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's = 'Second=20 Term'
>

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced = search. Learn=20 more.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib=20 Jab's 'Second Term' ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C50F51.F667C2D0--