Return-Path: Received: from mailout2.pacific.net.au ([61.8.0.85] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 722399 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:11:01 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.8.0.85; envelope-from=peon@pacific.net.au Received: from mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (mailproxy1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.86]) by mailout2.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j19JAFHn014665 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:10:15 +1100 Received: from ar1 (ppp2334.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.35.52]) by mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j19JAATu029799 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:10:11 +1100 Message-ID: <007401c50eda$895537d0$3423083d@ar1> From: "Leon" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: To Paul SOme diagnosis thoughts was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:07:00 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006F_01C50F36.BBDEF950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C50F36.BBDEF950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, I've just been thinking. (A most dangerous exercise for me @ 4:30 am in = the morning!). As I mentioned previously, I don't think the "fan out" = had anything to do with the ECU itself. Reading your posts, it looks = like you have got a bit of a handle on tuning anyway, with mention of = running the aircraft up against your van, and fiddling with the mixture = while watching the EGT etc. I assume you have disabled the rev limiter = function on the Microtech?? From what you tell me, it looks like it's a nightmare to remove the = engine. Seeing you have flown successfully for over 9 hours already, = then the engine obviously has sufficient grunt to keep the aircraft = airbourne. Probably a waste of time & money getting this engione = dyno'd. So if you are having another engine assembled with high comp rotors, = I'd wait until then. There is no reason why you couldn't leave the = engine plate on the engine though. From what I have seen, the plate is = mounted onto the frame with just 4 mounts?? If you find a friendly = engine dyno place, then do get the new engine dyno'd. You will then = know exactly how many BHP the engine has at what RPM, and can then = probably get the prop size right first go, and as a bonus, you will = have the confience in knowing that the mixtures are correct. Anyway, back to the present conundrum. Many many years ago, when = teaching me to diagonse engine faults, an old mentor once said to me = that if an engine has approximately the right amount of fuel, and a = decent fat spark at approximately the right time, then an engine will = run and produce a reasonable amount of power - unless there is something = mechanical wrong with the engine itself. =20 Rotaries are particularly forgiving in that they will run on a pretty = wide mixture range, and are relatively insensitive to timing, (except = under boosted conditions), and there are only three basic things that = will kill a rotary mechanically - loss of oil (I can see Rusty nodding = his head!), loss of coolant, or swallowing something solid. The trick is to now systematically work down through your "fan out" = episode to see why it quit. Whatever you do, DON'T jump to any = conclusions. Assume nothing, and check everything. Have you tried to = start it since? Will it run?? Basically, when I have a problem like = this, the first thing I check is ignition, (because it's easy, and = immediately eliminates 50% of the options if I get a jolt from a coil = lead!!). I know this might sound facile, but obviously if there is no spark, = you go and find out why. A blown fuse, dud relay, loose wire = somewhere, faulty switch etc. If you do have spark, then the problem = is most likely fuel supply. Fuel tank selector first (My mate Ed turned = his RV into a glider one time simply because he didn't have any fuel in = one of his tanks!). =20 I also know of a certain experienced aerobatic pilot over here who is = now in a wheelchair because he didn't have the fuel selector positively = set to the correct tank. The selector was half way between tanks, and = while it had enough fuel supply to do the "run-up", it didn't flow = enough fuel for WOT at take-off. The ineveitable, happened, the = engine quit around 200 ft, he tried to turn back, it stalled and fell = on it's tail, and he's now in a wheelchair. He also totalled a really = nice aircraft. If there IS fuel in the tank (yeah, yeah, ... I know, I know, ... but = it's REALLY easy to check, and it HAS happened before - remember the = historic Boeing 307 Stratoliner that became a submarine in Elliot Bay = Seattle?? - so even the pros are not immune to this!!), and the tank = selector is correctly selected, then filters, then water in the fuel, = then fuel pressure, tank vents, crimped hoses etc. It's a bit like = a game of 20 questions (Ever played "Animal, Vegetable or Mineral"??). = The Name of this game is "Igniton, Fuel, or Mechanical". You try to = eliminate about half of the causes at each step, commencing with the = easiest options. So don't give up on the EFI just yet. I can tell you that having played = with carburettors for 30+ years, I prefer EFI anyday. It's a mindset = thing. Carburettors also have their downsides, and are subject to all = the same fuel supply issues as EFI. (Fuel quality, water in the fuel, = filters, pumps, lines, tanks etc) One major one that is a rarity = with EFI is flooding. Ask poor Ken Welter. "Kentucky Fried" his Coot = to a crisp some time ago. =20 Anyway, that's my little velvet bag full of Downunder pearls for today. Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To Paul Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and = Tuning Hi, Leon thanks for taking the time to go into such detail (as is = customary for you) regarding suggestions for tuning my engine, etc. I = took no offense with your comments. I would never be upset that someone = is looking out for me. Removing the engine, coils, ECU, handset, = exhaust, etc would be labor intensive, as the coils are mounted on the = firewall, the wiring for the ignition and handset go all the way from = the firewall to the instrument panel in a narrow center console that = took hours to "snake" the wires through, (engine is in the rear, and = panel is in the front on a pusher) the handset is hard-mounted to the = instrument panel, and the engine is mounted with an aluminum plate = sandwiched between the oil pan and block, so removal would require = reassembling the pan, shortening the oil pickup tube so that I could = install the pan without the 1/2" thick aluminum spacer, my water pump = has -16 AN fittings welded to it, so the dyno tuner could not use = radiator hoses, and a host of other tasks, which while not impossible, = are very time consuming to say the least. I would gladly pay a lot of = money for someone to do it on site. (mobile tuners). =20 As far as the fuel tank debris is concerned, that is a well known = fact amongst the canard community. I am fortunate that my fuel strakes = are different from other fiberglass canards, in that they are already = completely formed by the factory, (a top and bottom), with fuel tank = openings already installed prior to installing them, so there is no = drilling, sanding or fabricating, just glassing the top and bottom = together on the fuselage, and that is all done on the outside of the = fuel tanks. I still, however check my fuel filter screen, just in case. = So far, nothing.=20 Thanks again for all of your valued input and suggestions. I = have not totally given up on the MicroTech....just considering my = alternatives, and as they say, it costs nothing to do your homework. = Yes, I was lucky to get the aircraft (and myself) safely back to Earth = in one piece. I don't care to repeat that excercise any time soon....I = am going to pull the spark plugs today and take a good look at them, and = start my trouble shooting expedition. Take care, and thanks again for = your valued input. Hey....if you'd like a mini vacation in the states, = we'd be happy to put you up and buy you steak and lobster.... Paul, I'm so confused, Conner ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C50F36.BBDEF950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Paul,
 
I've just been thinking.  (A most = dangerous=20 exercise for me @ 4:30 am in the morning!).  As I mentioned=20 previously,  I don't think the "fan out" had anything to do with = the ECU=20 itself.  Reading your posts,  it looks like you have got a bit = of a=20 handle on tuning anyway,  with mention of running the aircraft = up=20 against your van,  and fiddling with the mixture while watching the = EGT=20 etc.  I assume you have disabled the rev limiter function on the=20 Microtech??
 
From what you tell me,  it looks = like it's a=20 nightmare to remove the engine.  Seeing you have flown successfully = for=20 over 9 hours already,  then the engine obviously = has sufficient grunt=20 to keep the aircraft airbourne.  Probably a waste of time & = money=20 getting this engione dyno'd.
 
So if you are having another engine = assembled with=20 high comp rotors,  I'd wait until then.  There is no reason = why you=20 couldn't leave the engine plate on the engine though.  From what I = have=20 seen,  the plate is mounted onto the frame with just 4 = mounts??  If=20 you find a friendly engine dyno place,  then do get the new engine=20 dyno'd.  You will then know exactly how many BHP the engine has at = what=20 RPM,  and can then probably get the prop size right first go,  = and as=20 a bonus,  you will have the confience in knowing that the mixtures = are=20 correct.
 
Anyway,  back to the present = conundrum. =20 Many many years ago,  when teaching me to diagonse engine = faults,  an=20 old mentor once said to me that if an engine has approximately the right = amount=20 of fuel,  and a decent fat spark at approximately the right = time, =20 then an engine will run and produce a reasonable amount of power - = unless there=20 is something mechanical wrong with the engine itself.   =
 
Rotaries are particularly forgiving in = that they=20 will run on a pretty wide mixture range,  and are relatively = insensitive to=20 timing,  (except under boosted conditions),  and there are = only three=20 basic things that will kill a rotary mechanically - loss of oil (I can = see Rusty=20 nodding his head!),  loss of coolant,  or swallowing something = solid.
 
The trick is to now systematically work = down=20 through your "fan out" episode to see why it quit.  Whatever you = do, =20 DON'T jump to any conclusions. Assume nothing,  and check=20 everything.  Have you tried to start it since?  Will it = run?? =20 Basically,  when I have a problem like this,  the first = thing I=20 check is ignition,  (because it's easy,  and immediately = eliminates=20 50% of the options if I get a jolt from a coil lead!!).
 
I know this might sound facile,  = but obviously=20 if there is no spark,  you go and find out why. A blown = fuse, =20 dud relay,  loose wire somewhere,  faulty switch  = etc.  If=20 you do have spark, then the problem is most likely fuel = supply.  Fuel=20 tank selector first (My mate Ed turned his RV into a glider one = time simply=20 because he didn't have any fuel in one of his tanks!).  =
 
I also know of a certain experienced = aerobatic=20 pilot over here who is now in a wheelchair because he didn't have = the fuel=20 selector positively set to the correct tank.  The selector was half = way=20 between tanks,  and while it had enough fuel supply to do the=20 "run-up",  it didn't flow enough fuel for WOT  at = take-off.  The=20 ineveitable,  happened,  the engine quit around 200 ft, he = tried to=20 turn back,  it stalled and fell on it's tail,  and he's now in = a=20 wheelchair.  He also totalled a really nice aircraft.
 
If there IS fuel in the tank = (yeah, yeah,=20 ... I know,  I know, ...  but it's REALLY easy to = check, =20 and it HAS happened before - remember the historic Boeing=20 307 Stratoliner that became a submarine in Elliot Bay = Seattle?? - so=20 even the pros are not immune to this!!),  and the tank selector is=20 correctly selected,  then filters, =20 then water in the fuel,  then fuel pressure,  tank = vents, =20 crimped hoses  etc.    It's a bit like a = game of=20 20 questions (Ever played "Animal,  Vegetable or Mineral"??).  = The=20 Name of this game is "Igniton,  Fuel,  or Mechanical".  = You try=20 to eliminate about half of the causes at each step,  commencing = with the=20 easiest options.
 
So don't give up on the EFI just = yet.  I can=20 tell you that having played with carburettors for 30+ years,  I = prefer EFI=20 anyday. It's a mindset thing.  Carburettors also have = their=20 downsides,  and are subject to all the same fuel supply issues as=20 EFI.  (Fuel quality,  water in the fuel, filters,  = pumps, =20 lines,  tanks etc)  One major one that is a rarity with EFI is = flooding.  Ask poor Ken Welter.  "Kentucky Fried" his Coot to = a crisp=20 some time ago. 
 
Anyway,  that's my little velvet = bag full of=20 Downunder pearls for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
Sent: Thursday, February 10, = 2005 2:12=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To = Paul Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning

Hi, Leon thanks for taking the time = to go into=20 such detail (as is customary for you) regarding suggestions for tuning = my=20 engine, etc. I took no offense with your comments. = I would=20 never be upset that someone is looking out for me.  Removing the = engine,=20 coils, ECU, handset, exhaust, etc would be labor intensive, as the = coils are=20 mounted on the firewall, the wiring for the ignition and handset go = all the=20 way from the firewall to the instrument panel in a narrow center = console that=20 took hours to "snake" the wires through, (engine is in the rear, and = panel is=20 in the front on a pusher) the handset is hard-mounted to the = instrument=20 panel, and the engine is mounted with an aluminum plate sandwiched = between the=20 oil pan and block, so removal would require reassembling the pan, = shortening=20 the oil pickup tube so that I could install the pan without the 1/2" = thick=20 aluminum spacer, my water pump has -16 AN fittings welded to it, so = the dyno=20 tuner could not use radiator hoses, and a host of other tasks, which = while not=20 impossible, are very time consuming to say the least.  I would = gladly pay=20 a lot of money for someone to do it on site. (mobile tuners). =20
     As far as = the fuel tank=20 debris is concerned, that is a well known fact amongst the canard=20 community.  I am fortunate that my fuel strakes are different = from other=20 fiberglass canards, in that they are already completely formed by the = factory,=20 (a top and bottom), with fuel tank openings already installed prior to = installing them, so there is no drilling, sanding or fabricating, just = glassing the top and bottom together on the fuselage, and that is all = done on=20 the outside of the fuel tanks. I still, however check my fuel filter = screen,=20 just in case. So far, nothing.
     Thanks again = for all of=20 your valued input and suggestions.  I have not totally given up = on the=20 MicroTech....just considering my alternatives, and as they say, it = costs=20 nothing to do your homework.  Yes, I was lucky to get the = aircraft (and=20 myself) safely back to Earth in one piece. I don't care to repeat that = excercise any time soon....I am going to pull the spark plugs today = and take a=20 good look at them, and start my trouble shooting expedition.  = Take care,=20 and thanks again for your valued input.  Hey....if you'd like a = mini=20 vacation in the states, we'd be happy to put you up and buy you steak = and=20 lobster....
      Paul, = I'm so=20 confused, Conner
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