Return-Path: Received: from frontend2.cwpanama.net ([201.225.225.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 528588 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:03:13 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.168; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.93.110] (HELO usuarioq3efog0) by frontend2.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.1) with SMTP id 30482210 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:02:41 -0500 Message-ID: <014701c4c864$122b2a00$6e5de0c9@usuarioq3efog0> From: "rijakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:02:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0144_01C4C83A.292A4170" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2741.2600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2742.200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0144_01C4C83A.292A4170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP don't see any EWP on cars yet as a means of regular cooling, except = racing. I know they sell them aftermarket for that too now, but I don't = see any longterm experience yet.... You have to remember that auto manufacturers won't spend a penny more = than necessary on their cars, and EWP's are going to cost more than the = basic pumps that have been used since the dawn of time. As long as = they're working, and cheap, the auto manufacturers have no motivation to = improve the product. The same goes for aviation. Why do you think we = still have the same antiquated Lycosaurs in production? =20 Cheers, Rusty (hey, I smell pizza)=20 Rusty, I know auto manufactures will always try to get away with the = cheapest, but they're giving each other one hell of a competitive time, = so they still have to get some reliability. What I stated somewhere else on this list about not seeing EWPs on = cars yet: I ment I don't see them on regular production cars (yet), so = there is not any bigscale record on them. Paul will try to proof me = wrong in a moment ( I hope...), as I really would want to learn more = about EWPs. But to get to the point, Rusty I believe here we are comparing 2 = different things: EWP against the belt Now if I change the factory WP against a good aftermarket WP, we can = start to compare! Meziere against Meziere or something like this.... I believe the car manufacturers would use EWPs at least on their = highend models and/or show off models, IF there would be any advantage: The highpowered topend models of any of the car makers struggle with = mpg values, a price difference of 150 bucks (or whatever a mass produced = EWP would cost) would be cheap to increase mpg even a little bit. Mazda could use a couple more horses on their RX8 to get back on their = initial claim.=20 These are examples where the price would be secondary to their image. On heavy equipment, 18-wheelers, they definitely would use EWPs if = they could make better mpg/power. I doubt that the price is the real issue. Nearly all new cars run = E-Fans today, because these really do bring advantages, even most if not = all big rigs run electric fans today ( though I admit I don't know, yet, = why my '02 Toyota SUV with a Turbo Diesel still came with a beltdriven = fan...) To your Lycosaurus question: Answer is: Absolutely crazy certification costs combined with absurd = liability laws. Even if you can improve them, as Superior proofed quite = well with their XP Engine series, it still will cost half a fortune to = STC any improvement. I am waiting since 12 years on the promises of any = of the big magneto makers to bring electronic ignition and variable = timing to the masses. However if the manufacturers of the engines don't = make the electronic ignition standard equipment, this will keep me = waiting a while longer... And they won't do that as long as this = involves recertifications and more STCs. Point is, in cars any innovation shows a LOT earlier than in aviation = (if it is related in any way, like cars and planes use both piston = engines). Electric Fans are here since what, about 15 years or so? If EWPs would = have that much of an advantage they would be here since a while too. = Obviously the electric motors hold up - on the other hand IF they fail = you still can make it home without the fan, not without the pump (Except = on the Cadillac Northstar engines :)). Car makers still seem to trust the belt more than the electric = motor.......... Thomas J. "Soorry for the wit" - who finds it offending and/or political.=20 Just because something is new it doesn't mean it is better than the = old and proofen. I am questioning the proposed advantage of the EWP - Proof me wrong!! ------=_NextPart_000_0144_01C4C83A.292A4170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, = 2004 10:44=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = EWP

don't see any EWP on cars yet as a means of = regular cooling,=20 except racing. I know they sell them aftermarket for that too now, but = I don't=20 see any longterm experience yet....
 
You=20 have to remember that auto manufacturers won't spend a penny = more=20 than necessary on their cars, and EWP's are going to cost more than = the basic=20 pumps that have been used since the dawn of time.  As long = as=20 they're working, and cheap, the auto manufacturers have no motivation = to=20 improve the product.  The same goes for aviation.  Why do = you think=20 we still have the same antiquated Lycosaurs in=20 production?  
 
Cheers,
Rusty (hey,=20 I smell pizza) 
 
 
 
 
Rusty,
 
I know auto = manufactures will=20 always try to get away with the cheapest, but they're giving each = other one=20 hell of a competitive time, so they still have to get some=20 reliability.
 
What I stated = somewhere else=20 on this list about not seeing EWPs on cars yet: I ment I don't see = them on=20 regular production cars (yet), so there is not any bigscale record on = them.=20 Paul will try to proof me wrong in a moment ( I hope...), as I really = would=20 want to learn more about EWPs.
 
But to get to the = point,=20 Rusty I believe here we are comparing 2 different things: EWP against = the=20 belt
Now if I change = the factory=20 WP against a good aftermarket WP, we can start to compare! Meziere = against=20 Meziere or something like this....
 
I believe the car = manufacturers would use EWPs at least on their highend models and/or = show off=20 models, IF there would be any advantage:
The highpowered = topend models=20 of any of the car makers struggle with mpg values, a price difference = of 150=20 bucks (or whatever a mass produced EWP would cost) would be cheap = to=20 increase mpg even a little bit.
Mazda could use a = couple more=20 horses on their RX8 to get back on their initial claim. =
These are = examples where the=20 price would be secondary to their image.
 
On heavy = equipment,=20 18-wheelers, they definitely would use EWPs if they could make better=20 mpg/power.
I doubt that the = price is the=20 real issue. Nearly all new cars run E-Fans today, because these really = do=20 bring advantages, even most if not all big rigs run electric fans = today (=20 though I admit I don't know, yet, why my '02 Toyota SUV with a Turbo = Diesel=20 still came with a beltdriven fan...)
 
To your = Lycosaurus=20 question:
 
Answer is: = Absolutely crazy=20 certification costs combined with absurd liability laws. Even if you = can=20 improve them, as Superior proofed quite well with their XP Engine = series, it=20 still will cost half a fortune to STC any improvement. I am waiting = since 12=20 years on the promises of any of the big magneto makers to bring = electronic=20 ignition and variable timing to the masses. However if the = manufacturers of=20 the engines don't make the electronic ignition standard equipment, = this will=20 keep me waiting a while longer... And they won't do that as long as = this=20 involves recertifications and more STCs.
 
Point is, in cars = any=20 innovation shows a LOT earlier than in aviation (if it is related in = any way,=20 like cars and planes use both piston engines).
Electric Fans are = here since=20 what, about 15 years or so? If EWPs would have that much of an = advantage they=20 would be here since a while too. Obviously the electric motors hold up = - on=20 the other hand IF they fail you still can make it home without = the fan,=20 not without the pump (Except on the Cadillac Northstar engines=20 :)).
Car makers = still seem to=20 trust the belt more than the electric = motor..........
 
Thomas = J.
 
"Soorry for the = wit" - who=20 finds it offending and/or political.
Just because = something is new=20 it doesn't mean it is better than the old and = proofen.
I am questioning = the proposed=20 advantage of the EWP - Proof me=20 wrong!!
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