Return-Path: Received: from imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 521172 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:22:58 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.68; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from Carol ([209.214.44.209]) by imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with SMTP id <20041107052224.LYPZ2350.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@Carol> for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:22:24 -0500 Message-ID: <008901c4c489$b9725ce0$d12cd6d1@Carol> From: "paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:22:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0086_01C4C457.6DFC8100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C4C457.6DFC8100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rijakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 10:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Hi all, maybe I missed it, but for what reason would you want to run electric = waterpumps? One of the primary reasons is that the electric water pump is an on = demand system. When the engine is at idle, the mechanical pump slows = down. With an electric water pump and the engine at idle, the pump will = increase flow as the engine gets hotter. Not possible with the electric = water pump. You would need extra radiator fans, etc. Belt brakes what then? When was the last time a belt broke in your = car?=20 Last Sunday....Had to take a taxi to AutoZone to buy a new belt. Two = weeks prior to that, the water pump failed in my Dodge Caravan. = Overheated rather quickly. Is there ANY vehicle out there that relies on an EWP for its cooling = turnover - air, heavy industry, mining, trucking, boats, ships, = anything? ........please forget about racing applications, except you're = building a raceplane:) Yes...there are two Ford Mustangs that I know of using EWP's. They = drive them to work daily. Back to the belts: Robinson Helicopters relies on belts to transmit = 180hp and 280 hp. These belts are lightweight and easily last 2200 hrs = or 10 years, additionally they are used as a clutch to engage the rotor, = average about once every 1 1/2 hours of flight time! If electric drive = would be that much better/lighter/cheaper/safer (pick any one or all!:) = they would run it electric!! Maybe a good discussion for the heck of it and to check the merrits of = it, but I seriously hope no one thinks about flying over hostile terrain = with an electric only cooling setup! Unfortunately, it's already being done, with a Mazda 13b. His name is = Todd. Personally I think a dual belt set-up is more than enough, but if you = want hardcore I'd do dual alternator/waterpump with dual belts (a total = of 4 belts), but not electric! Your alternator goes (and mostly it doesn't because of the belt, but = burned circuits, diodes, voltage regulators, etc.), your EWP goes soon = too! How long will your engine run on the battery which already supplies = ignition/fuelinjection/fuelpump/radios/nav. Now you want to use = another2-3 hp out of it? Well a bigger battery will need a heavier = alternator! Besides it is way easier to check belts than to check the condition of = an electric drive.... I don't want to spoil the discussion, but it points into the wrong way = safetywise! You are after a racer or something else special, sorry I didn't catch = it or signed on too late to get the start. But as a general means to pump the cooling through a Rotary, no = thanks! Again, check where, anywhere electric pumps are used for longterm, = non-stop cooling - I don't think Aviation should be the testing ground = for a "first time!"=20 (Please don't tell me about oceangoing ships, there things are a = little bigger and heavier and there are at least 2 pumps redundant for = EVERY pump in action, AND they do fail quite often, though not because = of electrics, but foreign objects in the pump, cavitation and erosion = damage...) I work as a mechanic, and I find that one of the least reliable, and = most likely items to fail on an engine is the mechanical water pump. = Check with other mechanics. I think you will find most will agree. = Paul Conner Thomas Jakits ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Todd Bartrim=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 4:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Whoaa, before anybody gets worked up over my current draw figures, = I'd made a mistake in my report and had sent another post correcting it = the next day. Below is the corrected post.... hmmnn, is there a way of = going back into the archives to correct erroneous data, as this same = issue came up once before based on my incorrect data post. Hi Guy's I had a hard time believing the current draw for the pump so = I brought home my good "Fluke" multimeter from work. The one I used last = night was a cheap Digital meter from "Canadian Tire". I seldom use this = one, so I'm not familiar with it but since it is very similar in outward = appearance to my "Fluke 87" I assumed the same functions would apply. = They don't. OK,OK, enough excuses, now for the real current draw. a.. continuous current draw - 4.3 amps=20 b.. max inrush current draw at 100mS - 6.8 amps=20 c.. max inrush current draw at 250uS - 13 amps=20 d.. continuous current draw at minimum controlled flow - .2 amps The max inrush current is not really relevant to our concerns, but = there it is for those that care. This higher current flow is still well within acceptable limits for = my needs, and I expect that while in cruise flight, the controller will = be reducing pump speed and current draw. I've reposted the flow measurements along with this post with the = incorrect current draw deleted. I hope this clears up any confusion = about EWP current requirements. I=20 I ran the first test with the Ford evap cores in the system, = plumbed in parallel. a.. Max flow 9.3 usg/m 35 l/m=20 b.. 12.07 volt battery supply voltage=20 c..=20 Second test had no evap cores in the system. Simply recirced = water through pump - engine - header tank - pump. a.. max flow 13.0 usg/m 49 l/m=20 b.. 12.06 volt battery supply voltage=20 c..=20 Third test, I plumbed in a set of GM (Harrison) evap cores in = parallel, into the system. I hung them just below my mounted Ford cores, = using they same pipe sizes in an effort to have comparable test = conditions. a.. max flow 7.7 usg/m 29 l/m=20 b.. 12.4 volts supply voltage (I hooked a trickle charger to the = battery)=20 c..=20 In each test configuration test results are with heater valve = closed. Heater core added .5 usg/m in each case. In all of the above tests the electronic pump controller was = bypassed to give full battery voltage to the pump. With the pump = controller in use, as the water was cold well water, controller had pump = at minimum flow which was measured at .6 usg/m - 2.2 l/m.=20 I've just been lurking since returning from school as I've got = allot to catch up on around here, so am trying not to get distracted = with the list, however I needed to jump in on this one. I need to head = out to the airport today to install my new radio and hopefully get out = for a flight, as they are calling for 5" of snow tonight. Todd Bartrim RV9Endurance 13B Turbo Rotary C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "The world will always have a place for those that = bring hard work and determination to the things they do." ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C4C457.6DFC8100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rijakits
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2004 10:13=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = EWP

Hi all,
 
maybe I missed it, but for what reason = would=20 you want to run electric waterpumps?
 
One of the primary reasons is that = the electric=20 water pump is an on demand system. When the engine is at idle, the = mechanical=20 pump slows down. With an electric water pump and the engine at idle, = the pump=20 will increase flow as the engine gets hotter. Not possible with the = electric=20 water pump. You would need extra radiator fans, etc.
 
Belt brakes what then? When was the last time a belt broke in = your car?=20
 
Last Sunday....Had to take a taxi to AutoZone to buy a new = belt. =20 Two weeks prior to that, the water pump failed in my Dodge Caravan. = Overheated=20 rather quickly.
 
Is there ANY vehicle out there that relies on an EWP for its = cooling=20 turnover - air, heavy industry, mining, trucking, boats, ships, = anything?=20 ........please forget about racing applications, except you're = building a=20 raceplane:)
 
Yes...there are two Ford Mustangs = that I know of=20 using EWP's. They drive them to work daily.
 
Back to the belts: Robinson Helicopters relies on belts to = transmit 180hp=20 and 280 hp. These belts are lightweight and easily last 2200 hrs or 10 = years,=20 additionally they are used as a clutch to engage the rotor, average = about once=20 every 1 1/2 hours of flight time! If electric drive would be that much = better/lighter/cheaper/safer (pick any one or all!:) they would run it = electric!!
Maybe a good discussion for the heck of it and to check the = merrits of=20 it, but I seriously hope no one thinks about flying over hostile = terrain with=20 an electric only cooling setup!
 
Unfortunately, it's already being = done, with a=20 Mazda 13b. His name is Todd.
 
Personally I think a dual belt set-up is more than enough, but if = you=20 want hardcore I'd do dual alternator/waterpump with dual belts (a = total of 4=20 belts), but not electric!
Your alternator goes (and mostly it doesn't because of the belt, = but=20 burned circuits, diodes, voltage regulators, etc.), your EWP goes soon = too!=20 How long will your engine run on the battery which already supplies=20 ignition/fuelinjection/fuelpump/radios/nav. Now you want to use = another2-3 hp=20 out of it? Well a bigger battery will need a heavier alternator!
Besides it is way easier to check belts than to check the = condition of an=20 electric drive....
I don't want to spoil the discussion, but it points into the = wrong way=20 safetywise!
You are after a racer or something else special, sorry I didn't = catch it=20 or signed on too late to get the start.
But as a general means to pump the cooling through a Rotary, = no=20 thanks!
Again, check where, anywhere electric pumps are used for = longterm,=20 non-stop cooling - I don't think Aviation should be the testing ground = for a=20 "first time!"
(Please don't tell me about oceangoing ships, there things are a = little=20 bigger and heavier and there are at least 2 pumps redundant for EVERY = pump in=20 action, AND they do fail quite often, though not because of electrics, = but=20 foreign objects in the pump, cavitation and erosion damage...)
 
I work as a mechanic, and I find that = one of the=20 least reliable, and most likely items to fail on an engine is the = mechanical=20 water pump.  Check with other mechanics.  I think you will = find most=20 will agree.  Paul Conner
 
Thomas Jakits
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Todd = Bartrim=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2004 4:27=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = EWP

Whoaa, before anybody gets worked up over my current draw = figures,=20 I'd made a mistake in my report and had sent another post correcting = it the=20 next day. Below is the corrected post.... hmmnn, is there a way of = going=20 back into the archives to correct erroneous data, as this same issue = came up=20 once before based on my incorrect data post.
 

Hi=20 Guy's
        I had a hard = time=20 believing the current draw for the pump so I brought home my good = "Fluke"=20 multimeter from work. The one I used last night was a cheap Digital = meter=20 from "Canadian Tire". I seldom use this one, so I'm not familiar = with it but=20 since it is very similar in outward appearance to my "Fluke 87" I = assumed=20 the same functions would apply. They don't.

 OK,OK, enough excuses, = now for the=20 real current draw.

  • continuous current draw - 4.3 = amps=20
  • max inrush current draw at = 100mS - 6.8=20 amps=20
  • max inrush current draw at 250uS - 13=20 amps=20
  • continuous current draw at minimum = controlled flow -=20 .2 amps
The max inrush current is not really = relevant to our=20 concerns, but there it is for those that care.
This higher current flow is still well = within=20 acceptable limits for my needs, and I expect that while in cruise = flight,=20 the controller will be reducing pump speed and current=20 draw.

I've reposted=20 the flow measurements along with this post with the incorrect = current draw=20 deleted. I hope this clears up any confusion about EWP current = requirements.=20 I 

        I ran the = first test=20 with the Ford evap cores in the system, plumbed in=20 parallel.
  • Max flow 9.3 usg/m  35 = l/m=20
  • 12.07 volt battery supply = voltage=20
    Second test = had no evap=20 cores in the system. Simply recirced water through pump - engine - = header=20 tank - pump.
  • max flow 13.0 usg/m   = 49=20 l/m=20
  • 12.06 volt battery supply = voltage=20
    Third test, I = plumbed in a=20 set of GM (Harrison) evap cores in parallel, into the system. I = hung them=20 just below my mounted Ford cores, using they same pipe sizes in an = effort=20 to have comparable test conditions.
  • max flow 7.7 usg/m   = 29 l/m=20
  • 12.4 volts supply voltage (I = hooked a=20 trickle charger to the battery)=20
    In each test = configuration=20 test results are with heater valve closed. Heater core added .5 = usg/m in=20 each case.
 
    In all = of the above=20 tests the electronic pump controller was bypassed to give full = battery=20 voltage to the pump. With the pump controller in use, as the water = was=20 cold well water, controller had pump at minimum flow which = was=20 measured at .6 usg/m - 2.2 l/m.
 
I've just been lurking since returning from school = as I've=20 got allot to catch up on around here, so am trying not to get = distracted=20 with the list, however I needed to jump in on this one. I need to = head out=20 to the airport today to install my new radio and hopefully get out = for a=20 flight, as they are calling for 5" of snow=20 tonight.
 
Todd Bartrim
 
RV9Endurance
13B Turbo Rotary
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.= net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
 
          &nbs= p; =20 "The world will always have a place for those that bring hard work = and=20 determination to the things they=20 = do."
 
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