Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2) with ESMTP id 380716 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:54:58 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from EDWARD (cpe-069-132-183-211.carolina.rr.com [69.132.183.211]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i7RBsPiB004114 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000001c48c2c$9b0e93d0$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Engine run Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:44:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C48BD7.646B0020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C48BD7.646B0020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageAl, sorry to hear about your trials and tribulations. But, this = group should be able to help you resolve them - by offering suggestions = if nothing else. Could you refresh my poor memory about your fuel set up. How many = injectors, what type (Low high impedance?) what size, where located? =20 Yes, I can recall when I had first fired up my engine before I got a = nice idle speed established. The old Ross Drive sounded like a gasoline = washing machine with all the clanking and banging - sounded like it was = about to come to pieces. I really don't think the 550 are the cause. I have run with them and = the only problem was the engine was not quite as smooth as with the = 460cc/min it was really not bad. Certainly functional and flyable and = that with a 2 rotor. =20 2000 rpm and 13" sounds low to me, also, but then you have three rotor's = "sucking" air out of the manifold rather than two. So, I suppose it = could hold the manifold pressure down a bit better. I generally see = somewhere around 15-17" at 2000. I presume you EGT temps are Celsius? I have a heated borsch O2 sensor as well and yes, it reads 0-1volt with = 0 being lean and 1 being rich. I presume its not one of those expensive = so called "broad band" sensors that are used on some autos today?? They = generally run close to $200 or more. Anyhow, discouraging as it is right now, you know that having had it on = the dyno there is nothing fundamentally wrong given the power it = produced there. So if you would bring me up to speed on the induction system, I'll = hopefully be able to offer some suggestions Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine run I guess I have now done what I'd consider the first serious runs of = the engine on the plane, and I have so many question marks in my head, = it's hard to know what to address next. The biggest issue is; I cannot get smooth running up to about 2200 = rpm; which is as far as I went. At about 2000 I adjusted mixture from = too lean to too rich, and nowhere does it smooth out completely - some = roughness, mild surging. At lower rpm, 1000 - 1500 it is quite rough = and unsteady, which is disconcerting in itself, but worrisome when it = goes through periods of torsional vibration with the reduction gear = backlash, which is noisy and shakes the plane. Of course it brings back the recent discussions of you other guys with = the 550 injectors in the primary. I kind of glossed over that because I = recalled smooth running on the dyno. In hindsight now, I think the = operator figured out early-on that to keep it smooth he needed to keep = some load on - just turn the load knob a little and it was fine. And on = the dyno when it wasn't running smooth, no big deal - no redrive to = backlash, and the engine is bolted down in the next room. You could = just hear that it wasn't running smooth. Still, I suspect something is different now; and perhaps you'll = indulge my dumping, and pass on a clue or two. At 2000 I'm seeing a 13.1 MAP reading. Seems low to me. Is it? That = puts it below the stage point, yet when I turned off the primary = injectors, it continued to run; just rougher. Same effect turning off = the secondaries. Hotest EGT was at about 1100, lowest about 980. = Bigger spread than I ever saw on the dyno runs, but the data we took = there was always under higher load. Fuel pressure reads 50 psi, TWM tells me it came to me preset at 43.5. = When the coolant temp read 125 when the pipes and rad tanks were just = about too hot to touch, which I guessed to be more like 140. I'm = suspicious of just about every readout. Later when the WT read 140, the = CHT TC that measure temps in and out of the rads were reading about 85. = I believed backup gauges were unnecessary. Oh yeah; the mixture bar reads just about full scale all the time, = even when the engine is about to die from being too lean. I have a = different heated Bosch sensor, which I assumed would have the same = 0-1volt range. Maybe not. Is the sensor output voltage low when lean = or rich? With the engine off and sensor heated I measured .052 volts. = I tried to get a reading with the engine running, but all I got was = about .025 and I can't be certain I had contact with the lead - and with = the prop spinning so close by I didn't spend too much time trying. One other major concern. With hot oil (150) at the filter block where = the feed goes to the redrive, the =BC" Al line to the redrive was hardly = above ambient temp a minute or two after shutdown; suggesting little or = no flow was going there. Oil pressure was in the 90's. I'm not aware = that there is an orifice in there. This has me a bit baffled. Oil pressure, coolant pressure, Oil temp seem fine. Maybe I should go to a movie. Al (not ecstatic) ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C48BD7.646B0020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Al, sorry to hear about your trials and = tribulations.  But, this group should be able to help you resolve = them - by=20 offering suggestions if nothing else.
 
Could you refresh my poor memory about = your fuel=20 set up.  How many injectors, what type (Low high impedance?) what = size,=20 where located? 
 
Yes, I can recall when I had first = fired up my=20 engine before I got a nice idle speed established.  The old Ross = Drive=20 sounded like a gasoline washing machine with all the clanking and = banging -=20 sounded like it was about to come to pieces.
 
I really don't think the 550 are the = cause.  I=20 have run with them and the only problem was  the engine was = not quite=20 as smooth as with the 460cc/min it was really not bad.  Certainly=20 functional and flyable and that with a 2 rotor. 
 
2000 rpm and 13" sounds low to me, = also, but then=20 you have three rotor's "sucking" air out of the manifold rather than = two. =20 So, I suppose it could hold the manifold pressure down a bit = better.  I=20 generally see somewhere around 15-17" at 2000.
 
I presume you EGT temps are = Celsius?
 
I have a heated borsch O2 sensor as = well and yes,=20 it reads 0-1volt with 0 being lean and 1 being rich.  I presume its = not one=20 of those expensive so called "broad band" sensors that are used on some = autos=20 today?? They generally run close to $200 or more.
 
Anyhow, discouraging as it is right = now, you know=20 that having had it on the dyno there is nothing fundamentally wrong = given the=20 power it produced there.
 
 
So if you would bring me up to speed on = the=20 induction system, I'll hopefully be able to offer some = suggestions
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 = 9:14=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine = run

I=20 guess I have now done what I=92d consider the first serious runs of = the engine=20 on the plane, and I have so many question marks in my head, it=92s = hard to know=20 what to address next.

The = biggest issue=20 is; I cannot get smooth running up to about 2200 rpm; which is as far = as I=20 went.  At about 2000 I adjusted mixture from too lean to too = rich, and=20 nowhere does it smooth out completely =96 some roughness, mild = surging.  At=20 lower rpm, 1000 =96 1500 it is quite rough and unsteady, which is = disconcerting=20 in itself, but worrisome when it goes through periods of torsional = vibration=20 with the reduction gear backlash, which is noisy and shakes the=20 plane.

Of course = it brings=20 back the recent discussions of you other guys with the 550 injectors = in the=20 primary.  I kind of glossed over that because I recalled smooth = running=20 on the dyno.  In hindsight now, I think the operator figured out = early-on=20 that to keep it smooth he needed to keep some load on =96 just turn = the load=20 knob a little and it was fine.  And on the dyno when it wasn=92t = running=20 smooth, no big deal =96 no redrive to backlash, and the engine is = bolted down in=20 the next room.  You could just hear that it wasn=92t running=20 smooth.

Still, I = suspect=20 something is different now; and perhaps you=92ll indulge my dumping, = and pass on=20 a clue or two.

At 2000 = I=92m seeing=20 a 13.1 MAP reading.  Seems low to me.  Is it? That puts it = below the=20 stage point, yet when I turned off the primary injectors, it continued = to run;=20 just rougher.  Same effect turning off the secondaries.  = Hotest EGT=20 was at about 1100, lowest about 980.  Bigger spread than I ever = saw on=20 the dyno runs, but the data we took there was always under higher=20 load.

Fuel = pressure reads=20 50 psi, TWM tells me it came to me preset at 43.5.  When the = coolant temp=20 read 125 when the pipes and rad tanks were just about too hot to = touch, which=20 I guessed to be more like 140.  I=92m suspicious of just about = every=20 readout. Later when the WT read 140, the CHT TC that measure temps in = and out=20 of the rads were reading about 85.  I believed backup gauges were = unnecessary.

Oh yeah; = the=20 mixture bar reads just about full scale all the time, even when the = engine is=20 about to die from being too lean.  I have a different heated = Bosch=20 sensor, which I assumed would have the same 0-1volt range.  Maybe = not.  Is the sensor output voltage low when lean or rich? =  With the=20 engine off and sensor heated I measured .052 volts.  I tried to = get a=20 reading with the engine running, but all I got was about .025 and I = can=92t be=20 certain I had contact with the lead =96 and with the prop spinning so = close by I=20 didn=92t spend too much time trying.

One other = major=20 concern.  With hot oil (150) at the filter block where the feed = goes to=20 the redrive, the =BC=94 Al line to the redrive was hardly above = ambient temp a=20 minute or two after shutdown; suggesting little or no flow was going=20 there.  Oil pressure was in the 90=92s.  I=92m not aware = that there is=20 an orifice in there.  This has me a bit = baffled.

Oil = pressure,=20 coolant pressure, Oil temp seem fine.

Maybe I = should go=20 to a movie.

Al (not=20 ecstatic)

 

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